Doggy problems

[Gemtubbs]

Hello!

I feel in a bit of an awkward situation atm and wanted to get it off my chest and maybe get some advice.

My mum got a dog almost 2 years ago from a puppy. She is a Hungarian Puli. I do like animals and I wanted my mum to be happy, she always wanted a dog so badly. The problem is, it turns out that the dog is nasty. She's bitten loads of people and we're not cruel to her. My mum cares for her really well, she gets 2 walks a day and lots of love and attention. My mum is home with her all of the time so she's hardly ever left on her own.

She bit me because she stole a flapjack from my 3yr old DS, and I took it back off of her. My dh was playing with her last night a game of "find the ball", and he was not winding her up in any way, but when he went to pick up the ball she bit him. She'll lie in the middle of the floor and then bite you and growl at you if you walk too close to her. She jumps up at everyone. She bit the hairdresser last night. The lady is nervous of dogs and I think that the dog sensed that and bit her.

My problem is that my mum still thinks that the sun shines out of her dog's arse and doesn't see an issue. I would now rather just go to my mum's house and keep out of the dog's way, and the dog keep out of my way. I think that she should put a muzzle on her, the type where they can still open their mouth, but so that she can't get at people. I said this to my mum, but she didn't seem to like the idea or feel it was necessary.

If you're a dog owner, and you have people come over to your house whom you know are nervous of dogs, do you keep the dog out of the way? Is that not only fair?

Sorry for the long post, I'm just worried that the dog is going to bite my DS and I have another baby on the way soon. I don't want to fall out with my mum about it, but the dog just makes me want to stop going round to her house.

We only have a pup yet, but when we have guests, until I'm sure of their feelings towards dogs I pop her in her crate. Then bring her out when everyone is calm, have drinks etc so can have all my attention on the situation. And she's a baby, and becoming a good dog. If I had a biter and a big aggressive dog, I wouldn't have her out whilst I had guests, or I'd muzzle her.
I'd get a behaviourist in too, to try and sort the situation out.

depends how long your visiting for, I used to put my dog on the other side of a stair gate when my friend who was heaviily pregnant came round and when her baby was tiny, but that was only for a couple of hours, I wouldnt do it for the whole day or anything.

The 2 situations you have described sound very much like she was defending herself, you cant take food out of a dogs mouth, you just cant, the rule in this house is if the dogs got it too late. also games that involve can often end up with someone getting caught as the dog is trying to get the ball first.

Is the dog well socaialised with other dogs, because playing eith other dogs is how they learn somehting called bit inhibition which is basically learning to control the strength of their bite so they dont hurt you.

I can complelty understand you not wanting to go round their with your ds, could your mum not visit you instead till the dog has calmed down?

Your mum IBVU. I am a dog owner, so I don't belong to the ban-them-all brigade, but it is irresponsible people like your mum, who refuse to accept the risks their pet poses to those around them, who give the rest of us a bad name.

This fairly lengthyfactsheet is a useful resource, if you think your mum would read it. But in your shoes I'd simply stop visiting - if she wants to see her grandchildren she has the option of coming to visit you and leaving the dog behind, or ensuring the dog is kept in another room while your children are there. Children are very hard for dogs to cope with, being small, noisy and unpredictable, and it isn't actually fair of your mum to expect the dog to put up with them.

If she takes you seriously she might consider the input of a behaviourist - look for a member of this organisation so you know they're not a charlatan. Good luck.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge will be on soon, but one thing strikes me about your post - you have to stop taking things back off the dog.

In the dog world, once the dog has it, it becomes his property. It's not good trying to teach the dog a lesson by taking the flapjack/ ball whatever back again; you are just asking to be bitten. Lots of dogs would bite in this situation. We have the calmest, most gentlest sheltie you could imagine, but we never wrestle food off him, you'd lose an arm. If we really need him to give something up we persuade him to swap it for something he thinks is of hiher value. Sausagey dog treats or chicken work well.

If the dog has stolen something, well he's stolen it. We should have prevented that happening by keeping it out of the dog's reach or telling the dog "leave it" when he approaches. It's our call to make sure that doesn't happen next time, not to get it back off the dog.

I'm not so sure the dog is nasty. I think he's being handled rather badly by you, to be honest. The dog assumes everyone is going to take stuff away from him and so is defensive.

I'm sorry, but I think you need to read a good book about how dogs are and change the way you behave towards it. You probably then won't have a problem.

I don't think the dog is nasty either. Being possessive over food and/or toys is quite a common dog issue and it can be sorted out or worked around. I do think your mum is being unreasonable to refuse to accept there's any problem though. Can you persuade her to book some sessions with a behaviourist - who will hopefully be able to help both dog and owner! I'm sure your mum loves her dog very much, but sometimes that isn't enough on its own.

For the short term at least, I would consider use a stairgate to keep dog and children separate when they're visiting, small children and snappy dog is not a good combination.

No, I don't put my dogs - or any of those I've fostered - out of the way when anyone visits, this is their home, not the visitor's. But then again, my dogs don't bite and my visitors aren't allowed to behave inappropriately with them as you have.

You say the dog is biting. I get the distinct impression she's not.

If she were biting you'd be ranting, describing the wounds, the bloodn but you're not. I suspect that this dog is nipping. Still NOT acceptable but a different matter altogether. A nip is a quick warning, a canine "fck off", quite different from a determined bite.

And tbh in part that warning is deserved. As has been said above you cannot go around taking things off dogs. We teach our children not to do that, it's a basic rule of dog ownership.

So the dog needs to learn ground rules - and a behaviourist is an excellent idea, together with basic training to stop her from stealing and to drop/give on command. It's up to your mother to take expert advice to sort out the possession issues (trainers often say that they train PEOPLE not dogs, and here I'd say it would be true tbh!), you can only suggest it of course. I'd also ask her to take the dog to the vet for a once-over to rule out any physical reasons for the behaviours. You could always tip the vet off and ask her to have a list of qualified behaviourists and a practised ream of advice on hand when mum turns up.

What you shouldn't do is put sticking plaster over the problem. A muzzle won't solve anything, just result in a pissed off dog and a (potentially dangerously) complacent family. Locking a dog in another room is a backward step and is likely to exacerbate the problem by creating resentment. The dog needs to be trained and YOU, THE FAMILY, need to be trained!

I can understand your reluctance to interact with the Puli but I don't believe that seperation is the answer. I'd be inclined to decline all invitations to mum's house until she resolves the issue by consulting an ADPT qualified, reputable behaviourist and agree only to meeting her away from her house. I say this as it sounds like your mother will be reluctant to act until her hand is forced.

Finally, you could remind your mum that if the dog bites, nips or causes reason to make a person she's out of control in public she will be subject to the DDA and at risk, ultimately - and this is not an idle threat - of being killed as a result of a court order.

Apologies if this has been said already by other posters - I'd almost finished typing when my laptop crashed and it's taken me an age to get the page back up so I have no idea what's been said in the meantime.

Fantastic post by DBF. I knew someone would be on who really knew their stuff

Thank you musicposy, but it must be remembered that I'm NOT a trainer, I just rescue 'em and train them my way as and when, just as I have my own dogs. What I've said is just common sense, picked up along the way.

Thanks for the helpful replies everyone. I do like dogs, although I admit that I do not understand the way their doggy mind works and I find it difficult to read their moods. I also understand that it is not the dog's fault, but the owner's for not training her properly, and not even accepting that there are issues here.

ditavonteesed - From now on, when the dog steals food, I will accept that it is lost and not take it back from her. Also, we won't play ball games with her any more.

dogsbestfriend - The dog is mostly nipping, grumbling and telling us to fuck off in doggy language then. When she went for me, she did "get me". Lucky enough, I had a thick jumper on at the time and she did not draw blood, but just left a nasty bruise about the size of a 50p. I have said to my mum that she will regret it if the dog has a go at a kiddie, because as you say the dog would be detroyed, which nobody wants to see happen. I get so nervous when kids are around her, my mum doesn't seem bothered. Some small children came over for a BBQ, and they went to say goodbye to the dog and give her a hug. The dog obviously perceived this as a threat and growled and nipped at them.

My best friend trains guide dogs and she has tried to give my mum tips for training in the past, which have largely been ignored for some reason. Things like don't feed the dog under the table, save her food for later and then give it to her in her bowl, and don't let the dog on the sofa, so that she knows her place. My mum feeds her under the table and lets her up on the sofa. I think that the dog is basically spoilt and thinks that she's in charge. Even my friend who works with dogs all the time says that it seems to just be part of the dog's personality to be grumpy and snappy. I'm not sure where training ends and personality begins. By any means, she's not a lovely, friendly affectionate dog. We just have to learn to respect that I suppose.

No wonder there's a problem. Your mum's getting crap advice and she's entertaining badly brought up small children.

What the hell are the parents of said small children on, allowing their DC to go up to a strange dog and hug her? The DC don't deserve to be nipped for this of course but the bloody parents do, how irresponsible! THAT needs to be prevented for a start.

As far as the "know their place" advice from the guide dog trainer is concerned, this is bollocks. It comes from the now much discredited and disproved "pack theory" which, you will find, is not a view held any longer by qualified modern expert behaviourists.

I have 3 dogs here, all bigger than a Puli - 2 are German Shepherds. One of those Sheps is snoozing on the sofa as I type - they all lie on sofas and beds whenever they want to, this is their home after all, yet there are no behavioural problems here. (Not with the dogs at any rate! :o ). I also feed the dogs titbits by hand and not in their bowls, have been known to take something from my plate and hand it to my dogs and do all manner of other things which might be considered "spoiling them" and still they don't nip.

But then again I don't allow people to take food from my dogs or allow children to pull them around/hug them and my dogs are trained not to steal food and to "leave", "stay" and "drop" upon command. In anotherwords they're trained and I train the people who come into contact with them!

Dogs do have their own individual personalities which should be respected, I agree with that. Some are never going to like random children running up and hugging them - and your mum should NOT be allowing that to happen - and prefer to have their own space and not be over-handled or have a lot of fuss and different people coming and going around them.

One thing that might be useful is if the dog has her own bed (or crate?) in a quiet corner of the house, where she can retreat and not be bothered by anyone. Not sure about all the things your friend says - appreciate that she's a dog trainer and I'm not, but there are different schools of thought about this stuff, and I don't think I agree with hers. I don't feed my dog from the table, but that's because I don't want him to get in the habit of begging or stealing human food, and don't really want to look at him drooling while I eat! But do let him up on the sofa for a cuddle, and don't think that's at all incompatible with having a gentle, well-adjusted dog.

I don't think the dog thinks she's in charge. I think she sounds stressed and defensive. And she hasn't been taught important commands like 'drop' and 'leave' (I find these VERY useful when dog has got hold of or is heading towards something he shouldn't have!) or basic manners like not jumping up or nipping/mouthing. So how is she to know these things are wrong?

Actually ignore me, DFB just said it all, better and more concisely!

So, in a nut shell, dog's are not pack minded? No pecking order with dogs? Everything I thought I knew about them is wrong. She needs to be trained not to steal food, leave, stay and drop on command. How do we do that? Also, every visitor who comes into our home needs to be trained. What training do we give them when they walk through the door? Also, any people who come into contact with the puli need to be trained, so, people at the park etc need to be trained. What do you say to those people?

I think dogs are pack-minded to some extent, but probably not in the way you think. Don't think you need to 'train' people at the park , but for example if someone tries to pet her you can ask them not to, if you know she doesn't react well to that?

Ephiny, she does indeed have her own little doggy bed to retreat to. I was trying to get her to retreat to it last night when the nervous hairdresser was getting jumped at and growled at. I even put a chewy treat in the bed for her, but she just brought it back outside. She does not like to be in a quiet place, she seems to prefer to be in the thick of it and know what's going on. She is a nosey dog! She's the type of dog that likes to be in your face, all of the time.

Don't pet the dog. Got it.

"Go to Bed!" is another useful command to have sometimes! I don't blame a dog for wanting to know what's going on though, especially with a relative stranger coming into the home.

Again though it would be ideal if your mum could find a good trainer/behaviourist to work with her. I've taught my own dog the things I mention (some of them with help from a trainer), but I'm certainly NOT an expert, and while there are people on here who are, there's only so much that can be done to help over the internet, especially as we're not even talking to the actual owner!

If anyone comes towards my dogs with the intention of touching without my permission and supervision/introduction I'm afraid what I say isn't very polite!

I agree totally with Ephiny's suggestion that a crate in a very quiet part of the house with no human through traffic - with door open, blanket and toys inside and NEVER EVER to be used as a punishment - is an excellent idea. Then train ALL humans not to disturb her when she's in it.

Training drop, leave etc... blimey, the dog's 2, she should have these as basics by now... would be easy to do if I or anyone else where there in person, harder to explain briefly on MN. :) Suffice to say, get the behaviour you want and then reward it. So, each time she sits down you use the word SIT clearly and loudly-ish (and nothing else, not even good girl at this stage) as her bum starts to go towards the floor and then IMMEDIATELY reward her using smelly treats like liver cake. Someone on here will doubtless be able to recommend a good book on training - I can't I'm afraid, I've always worked on what I have learned in rescue and by instinct, but the main points are:

Get dog vet checked to rule out physical reasons for grumpiness asap.

DO NOT LET CHILDREN HUG HER, DO NOT TAKE FOOD OR TOYS FROM HER, DO NOT DISTURB A SLEEPING DOG ETC.

Supply a place of safety by way of a crate in a quiet area, DO NOT lock her in but DO leave her be there.

Consult an ADPT behaviourist to address BOTH the dog's reactions AND the human's way of behaving towards her.

PS the other point I was going to make is that you can't underestimate the value of GOOD dog training lessons. It's well worth getting those basics into place a lot more easily and quickly by going to regular dog training classes. Get mum to ask at her vet surgery or to ask around for recommendations - again looking for someone who uses a rewards based training and who doesn't over-rely on the pack theory.

Can I just say, there is absolutely nothing wrong with allowing a dog on the sofa! It will not turn the dog into a slavering, alpha-werewolf.

Similarly, dogs do not try to get on the sofa because they are driven by an uncontrollable urge to be pack leader and subjugate you to their reign of canine terror. They try to get on the sofa because it's comfy and you're there (or even if you're not there, it still smells of you).

Jeez, how do people think humans ever became buddies with those initial ancestors of the wolf and became so friendly that wolf-ancestors gradually became dogs, the first animal to be domesticated and our most trusted and loyal friend in the animal kingdom!

Rant over.

My dog (even though I don't live there anymore- family pet) isn't allowed on the sofa, however he still sleeps there every night and jumps down when he hears us coming! Then sits there looking innocent- bless him!

We definitely do not let him sleep in our beds though and always find people who do quite strange TBH. Not because we want him to 'know his place', but because he is big, smelly and spends a good proportion of his day rolling around in fox piss

Sorry OP nothing useful to add really, but good luck with the training!

You say your dm gives the dog lots of love, but how about rules? I have two rotties and a toddler and so have trained them to within an inch of their lives. Anybody can take things from their mouths, play with them, walk them... I did this because I love them dearly and were they to ever bite anyone, in defense, play or protecting food, they would get put down.

That being said, if I invite someone to my home and know they are nervous of dogs or have young dcs, I will remove the dogs. Eventually they are introduced slowly with clear instructions so all involved are happy.

Your mother needs to do something about this behaviour (remove dog, muzzle or training) if she really loves it before someone reports a dangerous dog and it is removed, or worse.

foolserrand - I absolutely love rottweilers and yours sound gorgeous. I think that it's nice that you remove the dogs when nervous visitors or young children visit. To me, it seems very sensible and considerate. I think that if my mum did this, and then explained to people how to behave around this dog, things would be alot better. Combined with training as well.

Nothing nicer than sleeping with your dog. Very comforting knowing you have something with sharp teeth, who loves you devotedly, looking after you whilst you sleep!