Reasons to/not to breed

[Minorroad]

Reasons for:
+She cost £500 and has all the pedigree/kennel club background and therefore (in the eyes of some in the household) is a sort of pedigree puppy-spewing cash machine.
+Puppies are cute and the birth might be educational re facts of life
+She deserves the chance to have at least one litter

Reasons against:
+I feel weird at the idea of selling someone's babies, even if the someone is a dog. (illogical given that we bought her, but still feel weird about it)
+We would sell the puppies and she would go through whatever grief it is that dog mothers go through when their babies mysteriously disappear. Presumably the puppies also grieve in some way for their mother? Ours didn't howl into the night but I feel weird about that too.
+If we sold the puppies and their owners could not cope for some reason, we (I) would be obliged to take the puppies back (that is more responsibility than humans who give up their babies for adoption have).
+I do not understand the supply and demand of pedigree dogs. Surely there are more dogs than there are loving owners? I don't think her breed is about to die out. Frankly, I don't understand why she cost so much (althought worth every penny to us in entertainment and fun, etc) when presumably there are loads of breeding dog mothers.
+Dogs are being put down all over the place. Surely the market is flooded? I truly do not understand the supply and demand of pedigree dogs.
+(Trump card!) The vet looked at her and looked at us with a TRAGIC look on his face. I assumed she had some sort of terminal puppy ailment and braced myself. He then told us that she has an 'overbite'. This meant buggerall to me but I gather it means that she is not going to breed Crufts champions and (in money terms) is not a good bet to breed. She was the smallest of the litter and dc chose her for that reason. She is also very very pretty; it was a heart not head choice. (I think that George Michael has an overbite and I notice that he has not bred either. Good enough for George...)

Basically I think that against is far stronger than for. If she had a litter and we didn't sell them we would have a load of dogs who were sibs and wouldn't they then all shag each other?

If (when) we decide that she should not have any babies at all and get her done when she has a general anaethetic for the microchip, should she have an opportunity for a (non reproductive) shag?

Ideally I would like her to have a precious only child who we would keep but given that that is not how the dog world works...

I think you've answered your own question- don't breed, there's really no point! And you left out the fact that looking after a litter of puppies until they go to a new home is really hard work, and that the puppies might go to a home where they are treated badly- you just don't know. She doesn't need a shag- she won't miss what she's never had. Has she ever come into season? If so you can get her spayed asap. If not talk to your vet about the best time to do it- some like to do it before, some after they've had first season. Just my humble opinion!

anaesthetic?

This is not a serious thread right!?

"+Puppies are cute and the birth might be educational re facts of life
+She deserves the chance to have at least one litter"

you can find all the educational needs by reading a book using the internet!
A dog really does not have a dying urge to have a litter honestly what tosh/.

You show a huge lack of understanding on dogs needs, and behaviour but you are right against is certainly far stronger than for although your againsts are mad!

One reason alone for not breeding

there are too many rescue dogs needing homes you do not want to add to the dogmountain.

"should she have an opportunity for a (non reproductive) shag?"

Quite apart from the fact that your reasons for breeding are utterly and totally ridiculous & stupid, if your dog has an overbite, then to breed is completely irresponsible. Your dog is far better neutered and not allowed to breed.

If everyone prevented irresponsible breeding, which is what you would be doing, we rescuers would be happily out of business. We could go and sun themselves on a nice beach ? hell, we?d be happy just to have a weekend away!

Do not humanize your dog no one's asking you to neuter yourself. Your dog will be healthier and more comfortable once he or she has shifted into neutraland will be a much more pleasant companion.

Neutered male dogs mark less territory, and are generally less aggressive. Spayed female dogs avoid the messy and annoying seasons, and are not at risk for unwanted pregnancy. And both males and females are less likely to get certain illnesses.

As for the miracle of birth, well, there's another rite of passage occurring to Hundreds of Thousands of Dogs every year in this country. It happens every day at your local pound and animal shelter.

It?s called PUTTING TO SLEEP.

The disposal of those poor dogs that society has seen fit to discard. A lot of them will have been from litters where people though it was natural for a bitch to have one litter/wanted the children to see puppies being born.

Most of them are nice dogs, super family dogs ? they just want to be loved and family of their own. Sadly a lot of them never get that chance. There are not enough nice families and home to go round.

Strangely enough, those same parents that want their children to see 'the miracle' are not as eager for their children to see or know about the other part DEATH. You can't have it both ways.

OMFG!!!

is this for real??? are you for real op???

jesus christ are people really this dim?

Val will be along soon. she has some great links which i think will help you come to a decision.

Wow, I'm not a doggy person at all and even I can see the stupidity in this. You are being very naive and irresponsible to even consider bringing more dogs into the world when there are thousands of unwanted dogs in over-stretched, under-funded rescue centres all over the country.

read this.

Vet said 10-12 weeks after coming into season and we would get her chipped at the same time. He also said that we could wait if we wanted to.

I was assistant midwife at a neighbour's dog's whelping. It was horrific, and I don't mind cleaning out pus from an infected womb. The puppies just kept dying. My toddler (at the time) wandered politely to put his lolly stick in the bin and the owners of the dog yelled, 'DON'T LET HIM NEAR THE BIN!!!' because it had the latest dead puppy in it. It was an Irish wolfhound and the mother died too. We ended up taking a dog valium each.

Then why do people breed? I feel it is sort of expected (overbite notwithstanding) that she will breed. And why are prices so high when surely puppies are sort of free, once you have got one bitch?

Three separate people have said to me very recently that it is cruel not to allow the dog to have at least one litter. I do agree with that in terms of humans but humans only have one at a time.

If anyone who knows about pedigree breeding/kennel club/Crufts sort of thing reads this, would they explain to me in terms that I can explain to dc why the overbite would mean that the puppies would be (in kennel club terms) worthless? Would they?

And if the puppies were worthless, in kc terms, who would want them? I truly do not understand the economics of the dog market.

Thanks, ellangirl. I just need to rehearse my own very good side of the argument. Would you agree, that in terms of making money out of her womb, the overbite makes that a non-starter?

mrxx

OP have you read any of the responses? are you for real? are you thick as champ?

This is exactly the response that I wanted.

I knew that I was right.

This is exactly what I want to hear. Please post away.

But do you see my slight confusion about the (perceived) pressure to breed, or even the assumption that, because she is a pedigree, that she WILL breed.

I know Valhalla (by her posts, who could miss?) and I don't really understand why people breed when it is obvious that she spends her life trying to prevent rescue dogs from being put down. I truly do not understand this.

Thank you so much, everyone. Please frame your posts in a way that I can show this thread to members of the household. Deep gratitude.

were the last two posts not your own words? are they someone elses?

But I don't understand any reason why a dog should breed at all, given that Val etc are desperate to prevent them being put down.

I have been rolling this one round in my head since I last saw the vet, and the rolling aroung is very much in terms of framing my conviction that breeding is out of the question.

The only 'for' argument would be the money spewing womb, which I find fairly abhorrent anyway, let alone the huge numbers of unwanted dogs. The 'educational value' was a limp back up to bolster the 'fors' before I went into the many, many againsts.

This is Exactly what I wanted to hear and I thank you.

Why do people breed at all?
There are plenty of dogs.

'I was assistant midwife at a neighbour's dog's whelping. It was horrific, and I don't mind cleaning out pus from an infected womb. The puppies just kept dying. My toddler (at the time) wandered politely to put his lolly stick in the bin and the owners of the dog yelled, 'DON'T LET HIM NEAR THE BIN!!!' because it had the latest dead puppy in it. It was an Irish wolfhound and the mother died too. We ended up taking a dog valium each.' I don't understand why you would want to put your own dog through this?

We have always had bitches. They have never been bred from. I don't think they cared much. They were all very happy dogs.

I know someone who wants to breed from little Whippet because 'she is cute' . I declined their offer for loads of reasons inc.

I do not want to add to the population of unwanted dogs, another of which is currently be offered upto god knows who on my FB page , if he is lucky he will come here, if he's not, god knows where he'll go or what will happen to him - do you want that for your puppies?

It's a risk to her health

She is the runt of the litter and won't chase - ergo she is not 'fit for puropse' and so would bring nothing to the breed, just more unwanted puppies.

I cannot afford it. Can you afford health checks, vax, fleaing, emergency vets bills etc op?

people who breed for the right reasons are breeding to contue the best parts of that breed. there are some breeders on her who will explain it far better than me. they aren't in it for moeny at all. good breeders make very little money after they take oyt all the costs of breeding and raising a letter properly.

other breeders do it for money.or because they are thick and think every bitch chould have a litter before being speyed. they are backyard breeders.

Nothing more I can add.

Is there any reason you are waiting for her to have seaon before being neutered. They do not need to have season and should be neutered at 6 months.

Thank you everyone! I need lose no more sleep in my categoric explanations to members of the household as to why we will not be whelping. Thanks for the links which will be used in my explanation after the event why she is done.

I didn't expect such immediate back up but it is very very welcome.

I still don't understand why anyone (except kc specialists, as BooHoo describes) breed at all.

The minorroad line of the species will be ending 12 weeks after she comes into season.

Will let you know when it happens and thank you everyone for fully endorsing my heartfelt (and Val-aware) decision.

:) (Big thanks to Val for previous doggy guidance and to sgb who cited 'All dogs have a right to have at least one litter' as one of her most hated remarks, years before I even thought of getting a dog)

Think you need to get some fresh air. Take your dog for a walk

TBH, regarding getting her chipped at the same time as being spayed - I would get her chipped NOW. It really is no more serious than having a vaccination and you would have peace of mind that if she were to disappear, she's already chipped.

You have no idea about the number of owners who have lost their animals (cats and dogs) who when asking for my help (as a rescuer) have said "Oh, I was going to get him/her chipped when we got him/her neutered - he doesn't have a chip".

That microchip can quite literally be an animals lifeline.

Eglu. The decision to have her neutered is now thoroughly cemented by the mumsnet hive mind. I want her chipped and I would like both done at the same time. The vet said that 10-12 weeks after she comes into season, which can only be a couple of months away.

I still don't really understand why anyone breeds, given the mountain of unwanted dogs but I am very grateful for your (plural) complete back up of my (already sound) decision not to let dog breed.

But why does anyone breed? (dogs, not humans)

Heartfelt thanks to all who have given me categorical back up.

MRx.

My point Minorroad is that there is no reason for the vet to wait until after she has had a season. How old is the puppy?

eglue some vets are not comfortable doing it before first season. I'm not saying you're not right, just that the vet will decide what to do and then you either accept the decision of that vet, or find another one. The OPs vet has advised after the first season. Does it really matter providing care is taken while the dog is in season? As for microchipping, I agree asap is best. It doesn't need an anaesthetic to do it.