Reasons to/not to breed

[Minorroad]

Reasons for:
+She cost £500 and has all the pedigree/kennel club background and therefore (in the eyes of some in the household) is a sort of pedigree puppy-spewing cash machine.
+Puppies are cute and the birth might be educational re facts of life
+She deserves the chance to have at least one litter

Reasons against:
+I feel weird at the idea of selling someone's babies, even if the someone is a dog. (illogical given that we bought her, but still feel weird about it)
+We would sell the puppies and she would go through whatever grief it is that dog mothers go through when their babies mysteriously disappear. Presumably the puppies also grieve in some way for their mother? Ours didn't howl into the night but I feel weird about that too.
+If we sold the puppies and their owners could not cope for some reason, we (I) would be obliged to take the puppies back (that is more responsibility than humans who give up their babies for adoption have).
+I do not understand the supply and demand of pedigree dogs. Surely there are more dogs than there are loving owners? I don't think her breed is about to die out. Frankly, I don't understand why she cost so much (althought worth every penny to us in entertainment and fun, etc) when presumably there are loads of breeding dog mothers.
+Dogs are being put down all over the place. Surely the market is flooded? I truly do not understand the supply and demand of pedigree dogs.
+(Trump card!) The vet looked at her and looked at us with a TRAGIC look on his face. I assumed she had some sort of terminal puppy ailment and braced myself. He then told us that she has an 'overbite'. This meant buggerall to me but I gather it means that she is not going to breed Crufts champions and (in money terms) is not a good bet to breed. She was the smallest of the litter and dc chose her for that reason. She is also very very pretty; it was a heart not head choice. (I think that George Michael has an overbite and I notice that he has not bred either. Good enough for George...)

Basically I think that against is far stronger than for. If she had a litter and we didn't sell them we would have a load of dogs who were sibs and wouldn't they then all shag each other?

If (when) we decide that she should not have any babies at all and get her done when she has a general anaethetic for the microchip, should she have an opportunity for a (non reproductive) shag?

born 20 August.
Just rang vet. They say 3 months after 1st season and get chipped in the same op.
Advice that I will be taking.
Deeply relieved at this thread.
I always know when I am right.

Thank you all, and deep thanks to Val for keeping even the most undogminded people of the bizarreness of dog breeding. (before we got her)
MR.

Anaesthetic for the neutering. The chipping does not need a general but they said it was a 'big needle' so I would like them done in the same go.

Getting a microchip is not an operation , it's akin to us having our ears pierced. A few vets around here offer walk in chipping. They get the gun, chip the dog while you fill in a form. Done.

It really is best to do it as soon as possible. I wouldn't wait 12 weeks.

thanks, dooin, will do that first and neuter when vet says after first season.

Tbh if your vet advised you to wait for microchipping I'd change vets. That's a really irresponsible thing to advise.

Don't know why they recommend neutering after first season but I gather the chipping can be done (fairly painlessly, they tell me) this week.

As someone who has chipped 100s of animals. The sooner it is done the better, it hurts when you do it someone of them squeak and then it's over and done with. My tag line is 30 seconds of pain for a lifetimes peace of mind.

I'm glad you decided to have her neutered!

Just wanted to say on your reason 'she deserves the chance to have at least one litter' - I hear this quite often actually, people seem to feel that their dog/cat is missing out somehow if they don't get to reproduce. Maybe someone else knows better, but it seems to me really unlikely that they think this way - yes a bitch in heat (or a dog that comes near one) is going to have a very very strong urge to 'do the deed' - but it really seems unlikely that in other circumstances (and especially after neutering) they spend time dreaming wistfully about how it would have been to have puppies of their own! Surely it's more likely these are human feelings that we project onto them.

That arguement confuses me too. Surely even if dogs do get the maternal urge like humans do, then it would be to bring up a litter, not just produce one to have them all taken away??

Ephiny
I started this thread because I thought that I remembered a thread years ago (before I even contemplated getting a dog) about stupid things that people say that drive one mad. I (mistakenly) thought that sgb said that what she hated was people saying 'all dogs deserve to have at least one litter'. I don't know why it stuck in my mind, but in the last couple of weeks, THREE people have made the same comment to me. I pm'd her and she says it wasn't her that said it but somehow it stuck in my mind. And I have a certain respect for sgb because she seems to speak her mind, however unpopular her views. So I decided to post here. The 'all dogs deserve to have at least one litter' was (I thought) her quote on the epitome of stupidity.

Deep thanks all round.

Afternoon, it is a confusion but I don't think it is possible to bring up a litter in maternal bliss because I think that they would shag each other. But I have had a very happy conclusion to my own dilemna so I am bowing out now.

(I do still think that humans should have a chance to have a pup, but that is one for relationships, not the doghouse)

mrxx

DooinMeCleanin, it's not fair to suggest the OP changes vet just because someone at the surgery suggested having the chip done at neutering. I'm a vet too, and while we chip umpteen animals on early vaccination visits, there are some owners who would prefer it be done at neutering, either because they are worried about the animal reacting to the needle (and some of them do scream) or because they haven't been fully convinced and are going to be put off by a hard sell, or whatever other reason. Sometimes people will be put off by a vet advising too many things up front - vaccinations, wormers, flea treatment, microchip - they are all important things that are for the benefit of the puppy, but some people will think the vet is only out for the money if you shove everything at them immediately. Often I'll talk to people about all these things when they first come in, and they'll go for one or two of them first off, and then in a few weeks they'll have seen an advert or talked to someone on mumsnet or whatever, and they'll be much more responsive to the other things I've suggested (as may be happening here). But better the chip is done at neutering than never!

Dooin, I didn't realise the chip was as simple as ear piercing and I was waiting to have her go under for the neutering. I am going to get the chipping done this week.

To answer another point - the thing about the overbite is that it's an inherited fault. That doesn't mean that if a dog with an overbite is bred from, every puppy will have an overbite, but it does mean that the likelihood of the puppies having bad mouths (meaning teeth that aren't aligned properly) will be higher than it would be otherwise. Some overbites, though by no means all, will be so bad that they actually cause the dog problems - such as when the lower canine teeth make holes in the hard palate because they hit it in the wrong place. Therefore, it's better not to risk producing more dogs with overbites.
From the show point of view, an overbite is an obvious fault which will easily be spotted by any judge, and therefore a dog with such a fault can't be shown successfully and shouldn't be bred from because she will produce more puppies with the same fault, which is obviously bad from both showing and health points of view.
The good reason for breeding purebred dogs (and I do occasionally breed as well as being a vet) is to continue a line of dogs of a breed one loves, to hold in trust for future generations, in the aim of producing sound, happy companions with the appearance and characteristics of the breed in question and as few health problems as possible. No good breeder is in it for the money, and in a breed which has small litters, a good breeder is very unlikely to even clear their costs for breeding. I could write pages on good breeding practices, but from lurking here I am a bit worried about having put my head above the parapet to admit I breed at all! Anyway, OP - well done for deciding not to breed from your bitch!

Thing is, Alice15, you as a vet know that Responsible breeders who love the breed are a very, very, very different thing to "backyard breeders" who are cashing in on the latest designer pet.

You have probably seen fads of dogs where suddenly, it's trendy to own one because a celebrity does or they looked good in a film and "I want one of them dogs like what I saw in that film". People cash in on that because they see it as a way of making a quick buck. Dalmations after the film 101 Dalmations are a good example. So are labradoodles, Shitapoo & cockerpoos, Jugs etc. What a scam - £300-£500 for a cross-breed puppy, FFS!

I work in rescue and I see daily what a throwaway society we are, as do you, probably, in your daily work. Having said that, on the other end of the string, my DH (a farmer) has just paid (a lot of money) for a fully trained, ISDS registered, working sheep dog, which has come from a known source. That dog would never in a million years have come from a rescue organisation. I can state that from a rescue POV, because I work with one of the UK's leading Border Collie breed specialist rescues. Our other 3 sheep dogs are rescues (from that BC rescue org) and are pretty useless as working dogs, although their instinct does kick in and they love to "help".

Similar with DH's working gun dog (black lab) that will come from a great long line of field trial champions. Our game-keeper will be breeding his bitch next autumn, but the stud-dog is already identified, working homes are already booked & vetted, and there is already a waiting list. The bitch isn't even pregnant yet! That's responsible breeding - production of a dog "fit for purpose".

I asked mumsnet to withdraw my previous post because I got carried away and wrote stuff that was too identifying. But I completely agree with you, QuietTiger!

It's OK, I saw what you wrote.

Just booked her in for chipping at 4pm today.

Do NOT breed your dog. I was getting all 'het up' but then realised that everyone else has done it for me. So have now calmed down again.

I got my puppy chipped at 6 wks when she had her first set of jabs. It is 'stingy' just like ear piercing.

NOT GOING to breed my dog. Came on here to get back up for that strongly held opinion. Was disciple at the altar of Valhalla long before I got dog.

Dog is chipped. The person who told me that it was painful and best left until neutering was clearly mistaken. It was a man. Took about one second. Cheers. She will done after her first season.

Yes it's v quick. To be fair, when I got my first dog chipped I was certain it would be some sort of special procedure involving scalpols and GA. Needless to say I was both impressed and surprised when I saw it being done.

Glad she is done now. You have peace of mind that should she go missing, you stand a better chance of being reuinted with her.

Devil Dog growled a little when he got his. Whippy was far too busy eating and flirting with the vet nurses hussy to even notice