can you have a look at the video and explain what this do is doing

[weejie]

here

is the dog growling? is it trying to smile as it sees this is why humans do? is it some kind of guilt behaviour? can dogs even feel guilt?

I'm intrigued

Oh yes they can feel guilt! I know exactly which of my three has been up to no good by employing much the same approach as Denver's owner.

I'm no expert but I'd say he knows he's been caught bang to rights and is giving the "feck off" grimmace because he also knows what's coming next, an order to go into his kennel/bed away from his human and his (gorgeous old) buddy.

It's not a growl IMHO but more of a grump, IYSWIM.

I've always thought of that raising of the lips in a very mini-snarl as being a peace-seeking thing, non-confrontational and placatory, in the same way that a dog's yawn can be?

In the video I bet it has more to do with the bloke being persistently in-his-face in a manner that the dog probably finds a bit inexplicable and unnerving (rather than with the dog having some consciousness of 'guilt').

I agree with SerialComma. Dogs don't DO guilt. It's a human emotion. Sure, he probably associates human+empty cat treat bag = human being cross/sticking it in his face for some inexplicable reason, but "guilt" - no.

I'd lay good money that if the bloke did the same thing with the empty treat packet even if he knew the dog HAD NOT nicked them, the dog would behave exactly the same.

Dogs don't feel guilt they are entirely self serving.

That video has really upset me, both of the dogs are offering him loads of calming signals, head turns, lip licks, slow eye blinks, looks away, all in a desperate attempt to appease.

All the while he just carries on stressing them out.

Poor buggers.

stressing them out?

He was hardly screaming at them and waving a rolled up newspaper in their face.

I do believe that dogs can feel guilt. My old girl always knew when she had been busted- she wouldn't look at us and would turn her back to ignore us because she didn't like getting told off. Five minutes later she would be begging for forgiveness.

The cats on the other hand don't feel guilt because they don't give a flying eff about anything except themselves.

Appeasement... my dog used to do very very similar types of body language when we returned to the room he was in when he was new to us. All very "you're the boss, me want to make you happy, look I'm good dog making you happy boss."

He's since got his paws well and truly under the table and you just get a full-frontal mini tornado of woof and tail wag instead.

As for the empty treat packet - mine would have no recollection of the snack whatsoever and would just sniff to see if there was any food left in there looking at you blankly!

SecretNutellaFix you don't need to be 'screaming at them and waving a rolled up newspaper in their face' to stress a dog.

Dogs don't even like to be stared at. Getting in their face and being pushy is more than enough. Moot point anyway, they are offering calming signals, they are feeling presured and unhappy and are trying to make him stop.

Wrt your old dog, not looking at you and turning her back are also very clear calming signals, she was trying to tell you to back off.

What WTWTW said.

Calamity - are you familiar with that "snarl" expression? I have come across it twice in as many weeks in dog to dog meetings... so it's a friendly thing???

Agree totally with WTWTW.

I would highly recommend any dog owner to read Turid Rugaas's On Talking Terms With Dogs. It's a very short and easy to read book and it gives amazing insight into a dog's body language.

I think it can be, MJ, but with dog body language you should never pick on one thing in isolation.

For example, a dog might well be wagging his tail - at the same time as throwing LOADS of other signals that suggest anything BUT friendliness!

"He was wagging his tail - then he bit me!" isn't unheard of.....

It's all about context.

I agree dogs don't feel guilt, they aren't capable of it. What they are capable of is knowing our reactions to things and behaving accordingly.

If you really want to find out if your dog suffers from guilt, you can try this out. Put them out the room, rip up some newspaper and leave it on the floor, let dog back in the room. Then come in five minutes later and react in exactly the same way as you would if you'd come home to find the dog had made that mess and the dog will react in exactly the same way.

I know for a fact that if I went up to my dogs and 'got in their face' they would react in a similar way to the dog in the video clip, even if they had done nothing. In the same way, if I came back and said 'what have you done' they would act like they'd done something 'wrong' too.

Plus, I wanted to punch the guy when he said to the retriever 'you let it happen'. No, you baffoon, you let it happen by leaving the cat treats where the dogs could get them.

Thanks Calamity. I do understand tail position in terms of wagging and never trust a dog with his tail held high and wagging. Are there other, more subtle signs? (You might guess I am thinking of a specific incident!!)

Subtle signs of what MJ? Aggression or friendliness?

Good point. Both, I suppose. I'm questioning what I believed to be a friendly approach i.e. low slung wagging tail, relaxed ears. It incited that exact same "snarl" expression which made me pull my dog back, who immediately went into full growl. I was confused as both dogs are normally friendly.

Do you mean it was your dog who did the "snarl"?

Onlead or off?

I'm reading it as if it was your dog who did the "snarl", which made you pull her back, which made her go into a "proper" growl.

If that's the case, I'd guess that even if the original snarl wasn't unfriendly, being pulled back forced her into a more upright, confrontational posture than she wanted. Often dogs are worse onlead, simply because the lead itself prevents them from adopting the sort of body language that comes naturally. They want to go "low", but the lead forces them more upright, therefore making them appear to the other dog as more confrontational/confident, which often causes things to kick off.

So she did the "faux snarl (intention unclear)", she was pulled back/up into a more confident stance, other dog altered HIS body language accordingly which caused YOUR dog to become nervous about HIS intentions and do a "proper" snarl.

Interesting about the lead having that effect, Kate. I always have almost always relaxed the lead when my dogs greets another and all goes well, to the extent that people have commented on how well she is (he was) on lead.

Apologies though - I do need to work on my written language on MN - I frequently use shorthand and not give the full story or my full thinking. On the occasion I am thinking of, my dog was on-lead (aged around 9 at best guess and seemingly very friendly) and other dog (16 months) was off-lead in her garden, so separated but happily sniffing through a gate (I was talking to her owner). The young dog did the "snarl" expression which startled me so I pulled mine back, at which point she went in to full growl, almost as though it had been there, waiting behind the curtains, IYSWIM.

I think I am just doubting her, which is unjust to her as she seems so friendly, so I would love to know what I am doing wrong. The other day I introduced her to an American Bulldog whose owners, to their credit, were trying to socialise him. I saw his tail raise high in the air and his ears became on full alert after about 10 seconds of sniffing, although she was usual "low slung approach" and remained so but I became worried looking at what I had interpreted of his signals.. you know that silent, slow moving thing.. so encouraged her away with a quick tug on the lead and she went into full growl mode and reared up to him... and yet quick to want to get away after what I saw as "telling him off". She does seem rather maternal and fabulous with puppies, which is unusual in many older dogs I thought.

Sorry, I seem to be monopolising this thread. Sorry Weejie.

See - I've done it again! I should have finished with I would love to hear your thoughts, Kate. I can start a new thread if more appropriate, as I would hate to hijack - I have just latched on to the "snarl" thing in the OP.

I think sometimes when they're doing their incredibly subtle greeting/sussing each other out thing, interrupting them (whether physically pulling them away or just calling them) can set them off. More so with a lead tug (for the reasons mentioned above) but sometimes even if you call them away/distract them when, for want of a better phrase, negotiations are at a critical stage...

I should just relax, shouldn't I? I usually am, to the point of horizontal, but certain dog language raises my hackles. I will try to just let them get on with it, then. Thanks

I know it's hard MJ; my dog is actually quite INtolerant of other dogs inasmuch as she'll have a brief sniff but if they persist after she's walked off (you know, when one dog is walking away and another dog has its nose seemingly attached to the first dog's bumhole) or if they get too boisterous, or if they ignore her subtle "Yes, nice to meet you but please bugger off now" signals, she will tell them in no uncertain terms to Sod Right Off.

I used to worry she'd hurt another dog but with her it's all typical noisy bluster and she's never had an actual fight. And I think that unless a dog has actual "issues" (as opposed to just being a bit undersocialised/inexperienced with other dogs etc), most dog meetings, even if there ends up being a bit of a scuffle when one takes liberties, tend to be noisy but ultimately nobody gets hurt. I definitely think that most of the time, it's far more traumatic for the humans on the sidelines than it is for the dogs - the dogs end up going off rabbitting afterwards, while the humans are left shaking and in need of alcohol/fags

And in general, the noisier the scuffle, the less damage ends up being done. The most vicious fights are relatively quiet; the combatants save their energy for biting rather than shouting.

My dog wants to scuffle like that. I think just a short snappy swear is all he wants. But of course there is the risk of him biting, so I put him on lead when there are other dogs near. Twice recently when he has been on lead the other dog has come right up to him (slightly unhelpful owners imo!) and he has been not too bad to begin with. I leave the lead relaxed, but but as soon as he starts with a snarl (even a small one) I feel obliged to pull him back, for fear of him hurting the other dog. And then of course I have upped the tension massively and guaranteed an agressive response from my dog. But what can I do: I can 't leave him free to bite. It's hard.