Aggressive Dogs - what to do with them

[minimu1]

I just wanted to gauge your views. I am fostering a dog aggressive collie and have had been given many opinions as to whether this is the right thing to do.

He has bitten other dogs with his ex owner. He is now muzzled and under training to change his behaviour. However he will bark, attempt to bite and lunge if dogs come too close to him or will charge at them if they come across him. Obviously this is a long term project and no one can really predict the outcome.

Views are from both ends of the spectrum from he should be put to sleep, to great that he is being rehabilitated.

Do you have an opinion and would you be prepared to work with a dog aggressive dog? Should a dog like this be walked on public land?

I'm of the opinion that it's great that he is being rehabilitated (and lucky lucky him for being fostered by such a dedicated and patient person).

I wouldn't be prepared to work with a dog aggressive dog in terms of fostering as I don't have the home/ family set up or training/experience required to take on such a dog. Would I be prepared to take part in training/ desensitisation exercises (as in providing my dog in the environment for you to work with the foster dog) then yes no problem...although I think Cheshire might be a bit of a way for you to come .

Muzzled and on lead then yes of course he can go out on public land, why not? The problem here of course is owners whose dogs have no or poor recall and who think it is all perfectly fine and dandy to allow their dog to interact with yours without checking if it's OK to do so first. Good luck with that one

i agree. i think he should be rehabilitated. i would not be capable of doing it, but i would be prepared to do it if i didn't have my hands full at home. tehre is no reason why he shouldn't be walked on public land if muzzled.

My short answer is no, I wouldnt be prepared to work with a dog aggressive dog, but only because my family situation/time ratio wouldnt allow it.

If I was on my own, no kids, no other dogs then it is something I would consider under certain circumstances. I suppose it all depends how 'bad' he is, how old he is and whether he can be rehabilitated in the long term. Also, are you going to keep him or put him up for rehoming? It would take a very very special person who is willing to work with this dog forever more.

And yes he should be walked on public land, so long as he is muzzled and cant hurt anyone. The dog needs to learn, wouldnt do him any good if he never saw any other dogs/people.

Why? Whats up Mini?

This is of interest to me.

As a toddler, my ds was almost killed by an agressive off the lead BC. He needed pints of blood ("almost all the blood in his little body" according to the doctors) and then plastic surgery later to fix the mess his shoulder was left in after the attack.

I reported it but the dog was never found (funny enough I was too busy trying to stop the bleeding/calling an ambulance to follow the dog and its obnixious owner when they ran off).

Sorry, there are some dogs beyond rehab. IME, this sounds lie one of them. COuld you ever, ever really trust this dog? I'd be a bit concerned if you said you thought you could.

This makes me feel quite bad as I have a dog-aggressive dog. He doesn't want a full-on fight at all, but if I don't manage the situation properly (i.e. by keeping him on the lead when other dogs are present), he will (with around 50% of dogs) react to their presence with a charge and a leap to the back of their neck followed by a nip. Once he has done that he is content to stop -- but obviously that is already a disaster.

My thought was that most people feel tolerant about the existence of such dogs provded that the owner manages things so that they can do no harm (and also trains as far as possible to put the situation right). I would cerainly feel that the rehabilitation of such a dog with an expert trainer like you would be a positive thing. But you are unsure?

I, personally, would not feel experienced enough to train a very aggressive dog. I certainly would not have one pts though. I'd consult with a behaviourist and take things from there. I'd most likely try and find a more experienced home or rescue to take him.

Devil Dog has displayed signs of aggressive (growling/snapping etc) behaviour to pretty much everything at some point, but has never actually attacked or bitten anything and I have felt out of my depth with him at times.

Of course the dog should be walked on public land, so long as it is muzzled, leashed and the owner/trainer is able to control it. Where else would be able to be socialised?

I guess I am having a wobble.

The collie is aggressive, more than likely from breeding, than environment - he had been owned by dog savvy owners who have tried everything to correct his behaviour.

He is only 11 months but has got pretty entrenched aggressive behaviour towards all dogs.

As weegiemum says the dog will never ever be fully trustworthy and is it right for me to rehome a dog like this to another owner. Obviously they will be told of the situation. To be honest I could not live with 14 years or so of the uncertainty of the dogs behaviour hos can I expect others to do the same?

The dilemma I am having is how can I put other dogs at risk by giving this dog priority. Yes he can be muzzled but a BC on lead is a frustrated and unhappy BC. Also a muzzled dog can still hurt and do damage to other dogs.

I have a dog aggresive lurcher, she is about 10 now and it will never be trained out of her, she is kept on the lead and muzzled on walks. She is not aggressive with people, at all, I do trust her in that respect, dogs know the difference between animals and people.

It's a bit different with a young BC because they need so much more excersise than an ageing lurcher so it is v. important that it is trained to behave so it can be let off the lead to burn off the energy. I think it's great what you are doing and I wish you luck!

I'd have no problem with it, done it before and I'd do it again.

But I guess you knew what I'd say already.

Do you think it's possible to find a new owner who would take on such a young never to be let off lead dog? Is that what you think, that he will never be allowed off lead?

I suppose that the prospect that he might never be off-lead is quite an extreme one. You would have to be sure that you could retrain him to the point that he would always come to you when another dog was around, and then rehome him to a place where the countryside was such that he could be excercised without much likelihood of meeting other dogs. That's not impossible though?

I think if I thought the dog could never go offlead I would have doubts. I'm also lucky that I don't have to think in terms of moving my dog on to another home: my guess is that if I ever had to pass him on (Never!) it would be a ver very difficult prospect for him.

ah I see Minimu, and I can totally understand your dilema. For a dog so young to already be showing such aggression and for it to be a BC, I am not sure that I would be willing at all to rehome it to anyone else. If like you say the owners were breed/dog savvy and cant get it to stop, well who else would in all honesty?

I reckon this poor dog will end up passed from pillar to post in rescue or PTS after it has seriously damaged someones dog. Wouldnt want that responsibility and wouldnt want to not try either, I feel for you on this one.

I have a dog aggressive dog who is not let off lead but not muzzled.
She has never bitten or even nopped another dog but does bark, lunge and act like she might bite so we don't let her get into the situation where she can be aggressive.

I really believe that almost all dogs can be rehabilitated with the right behavourist and trainer.
We haven't found the right one yet but will

Minimu1, as this dog has bitten other dogs it may take longer and be harder but if you can find the right help then it's worth trying yes?

Other nicer dogs are put down, why devote time to this 'nasty' dog. Collies should never be domestic pets.
They are farm dogs and always will be. I've never met a nice collie that was kept as a familly pet.
They always want to 'herd' everyone.

As long as he isn't aggressive towards people as well, there is a chance he can change his negative behaviour towards other dogs. You are right that it will take time, probably a long time to correct the behaviour.
One of my collies was/is dog aggressive when we got her, I had to walk her individually for several months as she was such hard work on walks. She has got to the stage now where I can get her to resists going for the other dog, when I give her a vocal command, but she still needs that prompt every time.

I doubt I will ever get to the stage where I can totally trust her, so she is never off the lead.

Yes to walking on public land, I used to walk on quite a regular route and tried to warn as many of the other dog walkers as possible, as she looks like my other collie who isn't a furry killer on a lead.

Still have yet to solve her killer instinct when it comes to post people though, despite our postman offering her dog treats when he delivers the post.

"I've never met a nice collie that was kept as a familly pet."

What the hell is it with people?

You've missed out Ripeberry because I know lots.

Have you thought about re-homing it to a working home? My friend had an aggressive collie who she tried everything with. In the end it went to a farmer where it would be worked hard and wouldn't come across other digs except ones it knew on the farm. It broke her heart to give it away, but she's is a lot calmer now when she's walking her other dogs and the collie seems happier too.

Well, our 'foster' puppy is pretty dog aggressive and we are working on it. I suspect in his case it is also down to breeding as well as lack of early socialisation prior to us having him and some very bad early experiences, including being attacked by a yellow lab when he was on his lead. He hasn't bitten another dog (only mine!) as he hasn't had the opportunity, but he does lunge towards other dogs, barking, snarling and growling/snapping and I do worry that one day the lead or collar will fail and he will get access to another dog.

There's no way I would consider having him put to sleep though. We are working on it. He is fine (ish) with my dogs, although doesn't always read signals that well. It does help that my other dogs are very good with all sorts of dogs and give him extra leeway for his 'in your face' behaviour with them.

We are working on it. I am not sure if he'll ever be good with other dogs, but we are currently at the stage where one can come in close proximity when he is on the lead and he will ignore them in favour of his ball. I'll take ignoring over wanting to kill anyday! He did used to be the same with people outside of the house, but we have overcome that. We are lucky though in that we have an enclosed tennis court we can do some off lead work in with him and also a sort of private beach where we can go and always be able to see other dogs when they are still far enough away to call him back and put him back on his lead. (he does have a very good recall, but I am not sure if it would work if he wanted to get to another dog)

I wouldn't ever rehome this dog (that was our intial intention) because in the wrong hands things could end very badly. I do think there are homes out there though that can deal with this sort of behaviour, but suspect they would be few and far between, especially for a collie that needs not only huge amounts of exercise but also mental stimulation.

I hope you can find a solution for him.

Sorry if this is hijacky but I would be so grateful for any tips. Tell me to f off and start a new thread if nec.

I wish I could understand my terrier's aggression better. I think he does read social signals well e.g. a very calmly self-confident dog burst out at him quite aggressively from a farmyard and my dog very calmly gave signals of non-confrontation and moved away. He seems worse with dogs who have poorer skills e.g. young male dogs that feel that they can run up and play with any dog.

And it seems that he really doen't want a full fight -- only to make some communication by a short burst of assertive behaviour (nipping on back of other dog's neck.)

The trouble is that the fact of any level of aggression means I have to put him on lead when we encounter other dogs, so his social skills are going backwards.

I think - and I am wearing a fire proof suit as I speak - that any dog which shows aggression should be PTS. Not worth the risk. There are loads of lovely dogs out there wanting homes.

I can see your point, seeker, but the trouble is, where do you draw the line? To put a dog to sleep for showing a hint of aggression, once, seems harsh, but most responsible owners will agree (I think) that a very agressive fighting-type of dog should be put down, and certainly one that has badly attacked another dog or even a person.

My dog went through a stage of being very possessive over bones, and aggressive with it, although luckily only to me (and once to my housemate). I just stopped giving him things to be aggressive over, and now only give him bones when I am going out, which he can finish while I'm gone. Even now the old possessiveness occasionally resurfaces and if he had a bone he would bark and snap at anyone walking by. I feel I manage the situation, and I wouldn't consider putting him down over it.

So, I think its simply not black-and-white...

I don't think any dog deserves to be put to sleep because some human has f*cked it up, tbh.

Thing is, Seeker, aggression is seen as one dog growling at another. So the growling dog would be put to sleep then? An dog was introduced to my dog today and she went to say hi, with her normal relaxed ears/low tail wagging furiously, no raised alert signals, but I saw his posture change to ears and tail held high and very alert with a furrowed brow so I knew something would happen... she snapped at him in spectacular style, but I believe she was just telling him off as she was happy to be walked away from the situation and didn't look back, unlike the other dog.

But she "showed" what would be taken as aggression. Most people would think he didn't, but I am sure the signals of aggression were all in his side.

...and what Midori said

Absolutely what Midori said.