Q about walking over agricultural land.

[Slubber]

I am bristling with rage here, possibly unreasonably but would quite like to have a sensible discussion with fellow dog owners and not burst into flames of fury.

Have just done the dog walk, one that I do twice a day. A good percentage of it is over agricultural land that is currently planted with wheat.

Dog is off the lead and pretty much the whole time is on the footpath with me or rootling about in hedgerows, sometimes she will stray onto the field, and then I will recall her back to the path. Initially I was concerned about her damaging the crops but on several occasions now I have stopped and looked what her paws are doing and yes they are sometimes treading on the crops but by no means are they being destroyed. I'm a reasonable person so if I'm told on here that by going on the field she is really destroying the crops then so be it, I will have to walk elsewhere.

Today I am walking with a friend and her cocker. Cocker flushes out a pheasant from the hedgerows and both dogs start to chase it. My dog recalls straight away to the whistle (thank God), my mate has forgotten her whistle so she asks me to whistle for hers and her dog comes back. Yes they were running on the field, pheasant has flown off.

Next thing we know we have an angry woman in our face, lecturing us about the growing crops and keeping our dogs off them (they were off them until pheasant incident) and then she says that the pheasant is her hand reared pet and if she see my dog chasing it again then she will shoot it.

mmm here I lost the plot a bit and called her a cow, thus losing any higher ground I might have had.

Then there is a full blown row with much shouting.

Not great really, I hate losing my temper.

God this is long sorry,

Anyway apart from that I SHOULN'T have called her a cow, does my dog need to be on the lead at all times if we are walking over agricultural land? As this is what this woman insisted that it should be.

I haven't read it anywhere but was told it by both the Dog Wardens and Police when my dog was mauled by another, whilst minding his own business. You can't be prosecuted for just having a dog off lead - it has to do something for you to be defined as not being in control and as far as the Police are (or certainly were) concerned it was either on lead = control, off lead = uncontrolled.

I'll have a quick google - see if I can see anything.

Farm I stayed in was mainly livestock, so always on lead, except for a huge silage field in winter, when I could be sure no beasts were about. My lease stated that my dogs would be shot and I'd be evicted if the dogs worried the animals. Fair enough.
Close control to me means walking to heel or on lead, so on lead for me to be sure.
Do remember that 3 tups got into the garden one night. Let the dogs out in the morning, as usual, and they shot back in the house immediatly and refused to go back out, having been totally freaked out by sheep on the wrong side of the fence.
Oh and if cattle start running you down forget all about close control and let go of the lead

You mean if cattle start running towards you Labradorlover?

I had that happen about a week ago (the sods had broken into a horse field on my route) but I was not far from the gate so kept hold and pulled her for all I was worth!!

I think there should be a law that keeps cows away from public footpaths

There is a law to keep bulls away from public footpaths - but not cows.

"A bull of up to ten months old, yes. Bulls over ten months of a recognised dairy breed (Ayrshire, British Friesian, British Holstein, Dairy Shorthorn, Guernsey, Jersey and Kerry) are banned from fields crossed by public paths under all circumstances. All other bulls over ten months are banned unless accompanied by cows or heifers. If any bulls act in a way which endangers the public, an offence may be committed under health and safety legislation."

If you got injured by a cow or other aninmal it would probably also come under Health & Safety law and you could sue the farmer too.

The Ramblers Association has a good web page on basic footpath law.

That's really useful BeenBeta - thank you. I had often wondered about the disturbance of paths that ran through the middle of fields and that has answered everything.

On the subject of cows, I absolutely avoid any that have calves in them, but I recall walking along the cliff path in Tintagel some years ago to watch the sun set, but the whole experience had been ruined by the knowledge that I had to then walk back through the field containing a rather mahoosive bull, which certainly looked a pedigree of some kind. I've subsequently been led to believe (by a farmer) that the ones you really have to worry about are Friesian Bulls and the rest are big softies. I remain sceptical

By the way, I can't see anything on the legal definition of control, Slubber. Perhaps it's just the take the Police have rather than law.

Oh, are we back to Cow Plans now?I always carry a cow alarm and a small AK47. They are psychotic bleeders when they've a mind to be.

lol at Cow Plans

Does swiping at them with a stick work?

farm by us has a flock of free range chickens
a neighbours dog caught one and was charged £200 to replace it - they were told in no uncertain times that next time their dog would be shot.it was then walked off lead but kept muzzled.a sign has been put up on the lane in the are to say dogs must be kept under close control.
i have a lab and would say 20m away is not under control - you take a chance when out on other peoples' land at your own risk.

terms not times

The Ramblers association link is very useful, thanks again Beta.

Requiring to keep your dog under close control is stated (but no definition) so I did a google and the Scottish Outdoor Access Code says

Is there a legal definition of ?close control??
No. However, the Code defines ?under close
control? to mean that your dog responds to
your commands and is kept close at heel.
If he can lie down or return to you on
command, your dog would then be under
close control. If you?re not sure that your dog
can do this the responsible thing is to keep
him on a short lead.

I see more off lead heel walking training coming up for the dog and me ...

Surely a small piece of liver in your sock would be easier??

Sounds like the landowner overreacted because she was pissed off that dog walkers let their dogs run around on her crops. She was being a bit unreasonable but probably understandably so.

You let your dog run on her land, albeit only for a brief moment. You were a bit unreasonable but only momentarily and understandably so.

I think she should have been more polite and you more apologetic.

I'm not sure I would have been though, either in the same circs, just forgive yourself, forgive her, and carry on as normal (but make sure your dog stays close to you for a few weeks).

sharbie, my dog was not 20m away from me when the pheasant was flushed, she was within a few metres of me (although not at heel). By the time I saw her start to run, made the decision to use the whistle to recall (it was blowing a gale, very noisy and the whistle is by FAR the loudest and most piercing of my three recall options), fished it out from under the poo bags bag strap and blown it she was approximately 20m away. I didn't measure. She turned on a sixpence and ran back to me at full pelt.

Was she out of control? mm well I'm still not sure.

Was she trespassing? yes

I'm not sure what you mean by 'you take a chance when out on other peoples' land at your own risk.'
She wasn't worrying livestock, and I was walking on a public footpath.

Did her running onto a field of wheat warrant me getting a telling off? yes
Did it warrant a threat to shoot my dog? No I don't think so.

As it happens the village gossip wheels have been turning and it turns out that she isn't the landowner anyway.

My favorite gamekeeper experience was the one who appeared out of the (unfenced) woodland onto the bridleway a full half mile from the pheasant breeding pens to tell me to put my dog on the lead because he had put down poison bait for the foxes... and no, he continued when asked, he had no intention of putting up a sign to warn other dog owners.

Lovely man.

I think she was out of order and you are obiously a very reponsible dog walker but you have suffered being lumped together in the woman's mind with the large number of people who are not so careful when walking their dogs and who treat farmers' land as if it were common land and cause damage and nuisance to crops and livestock. It can very irritating to farmers and I would hope that is the reason for the woman's excessive outburst.

If she isn't the landowner, then she is definitely out of order! Ridiculous!

well whatever slubber but the fact is when you recalled the dog she was that far away
what i meant by the at your own risk comment is that round here we all took those threats re the gun seriously, because, well we thought he meant it.
also dogs have been poisoned here in the past and killed by agricultural machinery - you really can't be too careful.

I am careful sharbie, my dog is very dear to me which is why I am googling away like mad various dog acts and currently being mildly freaked out by this thread as to whether a farmer has the right to shoot my dog if it is off lead even if it isn't worrying their livestock (still reading ...)

As the definitions of being under close control cover walking to heel but also responding to commands I'm still a little confused, but if nothing else this thread has given me a wake up call about letting my dog stray very far away from me when she is off lead even with a very good recall.

if Beta (or GentleOtter) are still about could you explain this bit of the countryside code please.

By law, you must control your dog so that it does not disturb or scare farm animals or wildlife. On most areas of open country and common land, known as 'access land' you must keep your dog on a short lead on most areas of open country and common land between 1 March and 31 July, and all year round near farm animals.

What happens between those dates? Is it wild bird nesting season?

It may be very well to have the law on your side but that may not protect your dog. I would always walk my dogs on leads in agricultural land even though I can guarantee that 2 of my dogs would never ever leave the heel position if told to be there.

Why minimu?

What do you perceive the dangers are to your dogs even if you can guarrantee they remain in the heel position (and I believe you when you say that)?

Slubber - that is the breeding season for most birds. That covers, mating, laying and sitting on eggs, then hatching and nurturing chicks and the period it takes the chicks to grow to adolescence.

The shooting season for different types of game birds is set out here. Outside those months (which is roughly the period set out in the countryside code) shooting is forbidden and country people are very strict at adhering to it.

A farmer generally will not shoot your dog unless actually frigtening, chasing or biting animals. My Dad lost quite a few aborted lambs after a stupid dog owner let his dog chase pregnant ewes.

You do sound a very responsible dog owner though. So many dog owners are not.

I would consider that keeping the dog to heel without a lead is 'under control' but if you think it might run after a rabbit/bird that pops up unexpectedly then best to put a lead on while crossing farmland.

Slubber if my dogs are on lead it gives a visible sign to a landowner that they are under control and hence he/she has no need to be concerned about any damage to their land crops or livestock.

I think the lady you met sounds like a loony but there seem to be a lot of them about

Minimu, ah OK, yes I can see why that makes sense. Yes I think you may be correct in your assumption but she may be a loony with a gun so I won't be taking any chances.

Thank you again Beta. Your contribution to countryside/farming threads is always very useful.

I'm wondering where I can let the dog safely off the lead now, apart from the common land (which involves a drive). At this point I can't guarrantee she wouldn't chase a rabbit (or another rogue pet pheasant) onto a field, maybe another look at the gun dog training to help with steadiness.

Our laws here are a bit different from English laws, Slubber (re right to roam).
Beta is brilliant with his information.

I had a very unfortunate incident whereby a shooter had not kept control of his dog and it wiped out my entire stock of poultry (a couple of years ago). I had been away for half an hour.

He was not prosecuted but then, the judge was well known as a 'gun' himself... I could have claimed compensation from the tax payer but not the man with the killer dog.

The landowner here has shooting rights over us even although it is our land.

Sorry to go off on one but to get back to the point, I would ask the local policeman if the woman has an up to date shotgun licence. Perhaps he may wish to visit her to refresh her memory viz a viz the responsibility of keeping a shotgun.