Q about walking over agricultural land.

[Slubber]

I am bristling with rage here, possibly unreasonably but would quite like to have a sensible discussion with fellow dog owners and not burst into flames of fury.

Have just done the dog walk, one that I do twice a day. A good percentage of it is over agricultural land that is currently planted with wheat.

Dog is off the lead and pretty much the whole time is on the footpath with me or rootling about in hedgerows, sometimes she will stray onto the field, and then I will recall her back to the path. Initially I was concerned about her damaging the crops but on several occasions now I have stopped and looked what her paws are doing and yes they are sometimes treading on the crops but by no means are they being destroyed. I'm a reasonable person so if I'm told on here that by going on the field she is really destroying the crops then so be it, I will have to walk elsewhere.

Today I am walking with a friend and her cocker. Cocker flushes out a pheasant from the hedgerows and both dogs start to chase it. My dog recalls straight away to the whistle (thank God), my mate has forgotten her whistle so she asks me to whistle for hers and her dog comes back. Yes they were running on the field, pheasant has flown off.

Next thing we know we have an angry woman in our face, lecturing us about the growing crops and keeping our dogs off them (they were off them until pheasant incident) and then she says that the pheasant is her hand reared pet and if she see my dog chasing it again then she will shoot it.

mmm here I lost the plot a bit and called her a cow, thus losing any higher ground I might have had.

Then there is a full blown row with much shouting.

Not great really, I hate losing my temper.

God this is long sorry,

Anyway apart from that I SHOULN'T have called her a cow, does my dog need to be on the lead at all times if we are walking over agricultural land? As this is what this woman insisted that it should be.

I have looked into this myself (after coming across a sign near the farmhouse over the way which said "Dogs off lead will be shot") and my understanding is that farmers can only shoot dogs in the vicinity of livestock. The dog does not have to be chasing the livestock, but in the vicinity of it.

I don't think a pheasant would (or should) come under the definition of livestock and whilst she was being a little irrational (probably had a bad day - check for posts under AIBU ) I'm not sure the police would take a complaint seriously as she wasn't brandishing a firearm at the time and wouldn't be in contravention of her license, although it might be worth logging it with them in case of future incidents.

Strangely though, I do know of a hand reared pet pheasant at a farm.....

We have farms near here that are pheasant farms. They have pens with hundreds and hundreds of pheasants in. Then they release the phesants in their woods.fields and people pay a lot of money to shoot them. Possibly such a farmer could argue that the pheasants are then livestock.......

Very true, Viva.

Viva I've been reading the Animals Act 1971 which covers killing or injury to dogs worrying livestock.

"livestock" means cattle, horses, asses, mules, hinnies, sheep, pigs , goats, deer not in the wild state and also while kept in captivity pheasants, partridges and grouse

So yes, if my dog had got into one of the pheasant pens and was chasing them there then the farmer is entitled to shoot it.

As I said if there were sign up that it was a wildlife conservation area or even a 'PHEASANT! Keep your dog on the lead' then she would be on lead, no question.

As I say this was the first pheasant encounter we have had doing this walk every day for the last six months.

It's a domestic equine hibrid for anyone that is interested.

Slubber - there are several issues at hand here. My father was farmer with several public footpaths on his land running across wheat fields as well as grass fields with cattle or sheep in.

My Dad did tell a man who had his dog running of its lead and chasing sheep that he would shoot it next time he saw it. The man was irate but my Dad was well within his rights.

Fields with crops in are vulnerable to 'widening' of the path by people straying off it or allowing their dogs to and the result is a large swathe of the crop is destroyed. If a path is widened by repeated walking off the track to a width of say 3 metres over a distance of 500 metres that damages 1000 sq metres that might yield 1 Tonne of wheat worth about £200.

I dont undestand the pheasant arguement.

GentleOtter, as an arable aside, these crops were sowed a few weeks before the big freeze in December. Is that usual?

I have been doing a bit of mindless crop studying as on another section of the walk the farmer has ploughed, and then driven his tractor across the field to re-establish the footpath that crosses it, and then sowed over the whole lot, footpath included.

The footpath is now two narrow ruts where his tractor wheels went with crop growing inbetween.

Technically the middle bit between the two ruts is still footpath and so people have been walking on it and the wheat growing there (not me btw, I am rut girl ). The crop despite repeated tramplings is doing remarkably well, in fact it doesn't look much different to the rest of the field which I suppose is one of the reasons why I have been a little lax with letting the dog step onto the field proper on occasion.

I suppose I'm asking how hardy wheat is, but just as a random aside as I know now not to walk on it. ever.

lol xpost with Beta.

interesting about yield losses.

Winter wheat is planted in winter. It is hardy, in fact in Spring the farmer will typically distress the crop by harrowing it lightly to make it grow more shoots and yield more. Tractors will occassionally drive over it maybe a couple of times.

The problem is repeated erosion by walking exposes roots which can kill the plant. Then later on, once it has grown tall and 'shot its ears' where the grain is, any kind of trampling snaps the stem, the ears drop to the ground the grains never ripen.

That is interesting Beta, thank you

Interesting about winter wheat (loads up here) and which animals are and aren't covered under livestock protection. My dog has killed a couple of pheasants, but I'm sure they are feral ones since they are a good distance from land where pheasants are bred for organised shoots.

Since there is so much knowledge here, how is it that dogs know which birds are for hunting? Both my dogs have shown interest in all and only game birds -- i.e. pheasants, partridges, grouse. So they smell different from other birds? Or is it just the tempting way that they leave it till the last minute to take off and then gain height very very slowly whilst shouting out their location?

I supect that if your dog kills a pheasant on someone elses land and you take the dead pheasant home you could be prosected for poaching.

Eek. I've never taken a pheasant or a rabbit home, but I have often thought that I should, to avoid waste.

Eleison - yes you are right. Dogs tend to chase pheasants and partridge because they are ground birds that tend to run along before taking flight.

Hen pheasants in particular do this to draw the dog away from their nest if they have chicks or eggs.

I hope you're feeling calmer Slubber! What a horrid experience.

And ok she may have had a point but honestly did she think that was a sensible way of going about things.

I would definitely avoid her land from now on as she sounds dangerous and a leetle bit mad.

Ahh! Thanks, that answers a question that has niggled me for ages. Crows will stay on the ground for a longish time too, and so my dog shows a little bitinterest in chasing them. But they are just being sarcastic: they never let him get any closer than they had planned all along.

Well, I have just learned something new. Winter wheat is sown in September here but probably later in England.

I think it is around sept where I am in north east england, otter. It always seems such a feeble and anaemic wheat compared with the golden stuff down south. It is a less valuable crop? Is it perhaps just used fro animal feed or somesuch?

My grumpy husband says it can be used for animal feed, malting, food production etc and is not different from the golden stuff in summer.
I hit a sore point when asking as we missed the 'window' for sowing because it was too wet plus he is dying of manflu.

For stop training etc, I would avoid farmland or get permission from farmer. I used to rent a cottage on a farm, and most of the time would exercise the dogs in the local Forestry commission land as it meant they could be off lead without any issues.

I don't do stop training on farmland, I use an area of urban common land.

Likewise when we train recall from a distance using the whistle and hand signals, dh and I are stood probably well over 100m apart calling the dog between us. As she is off lead is she technically not under control? Am genuinely interested if this is the case.

"It is an offence for a dog to be at large, ie not on a lead or otherwise under close control, in a field of sheep.

Sheep dogs and police dogs are exempted from this provision." (from Defra guidelines).
That is to do with sheep though and as you have stated previously, game birds are not counted as such.

I think it would be down to any prosecution to show that you did not have control of your dog in a particular incident. ie, there was evidence to show it did not come back when called, maybe?

Last time I looked into the issue of control Slubber, it is defined as the dog being on a lead, so technically the dog is not under control whilst being trained off lead.

That is interesting (and a little worrying MotherJack), can you remember where you read this?

I've just found this site which was quite helpful, with this bit about recall.

On a right of way your dog does not have to be on a lead but it does have to be 'under close control'. This phrase is not defined but pretty much means that if you are in a field with animals or poultry and your dog will not always come, straight away, when called even when he's chasing things, and then stay there, he could be at risk of being seen to worry animals. So if there is any chance he might go off then the lead is the best option until you are out of the field with livestock in it.

But again that is to do with worrying livestock.

I thought you could only be prosecuted if your dog was dangerously out of control, ie off lead and having injured somebody or another animal or property, or looking like it was going to do so.

I think the offence is aggravated if an injury occurs but it doesn't have to result in injury.