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Professor Regan's Nursery BBC 2 9pm

56 replies

McDreamy · 30/04/2009 19:43

Looks interesting! Anyone going to watch it with me? I am all alone tonight.

In the third programme investigating the effectiveness of healthcare products, Professor Lesley Regan looks at the children's market. She begins by examining claims about the benefits of various foods, before testing whether classical music can improve intelligence. The world of educational toys is also explored, and the marketing campaign behind formula milk is put under the microscope

OP posts:
imoverhere · 30/04/2009 22:25

Didn't see prog, wish I ahd, but I shall now stop trying to force feed DD healthy breakie (i.e no sugar) and stuff what I can down her chops! Frosties and Coco pops here we come (and does anyone else think the coco pops ad with the hippos sat in the choc milk looks like they're farting, not to mention the little brown turds... I mean coco pops.. floating around!!)

boogeek · 30/04/2009 22:26

It's fascinating isn't it (am watching a bit late on sky+). Does the cameraman have a foot fetish?

MollieO · 30/04/2009 22:27

Ds (4) is learning the piano and eats breakfast (sometimes crappy stuff) every day

Missed this completely tonight. Does anyone know when it is repeated?

BigBellasBeerBelly · 30/04/2009 22:29

Looking at the summing up of the program, it bothers me slightly in that at the end it was 3 middle class types judging the toys and coming out with the middle class toys.

the message overall, breast is best, say no to fads vitamin-wise, don't worry too much about diet - worry about exercise, give em good old fashioned toys, get -em to learn an instrument, lego and reading are great...

Is wonderful for me, as it's what i think. But I am a very middle class mummy. We know there are issues with people making different choices because they want to be separate from middle-classness.

i'm not sure how this program helped anything... except for giving affirmation to lots of people like me?

(good news about the cereals though)

SnortyBartFast · 30/04/2009 22:35

surely Educated people,
not necessairly middle class?

she was good that prof.

what thigns would people want who didnt want to be middle class ?

BigBellasBeerBelly · 30/04/2009 22:42

I dunno. Class is a bit confusing now and not something I'm terribly interested in, but know that there are certain trappings which point in certain directions.

Normally when it comes to children you tend to recreate your own childhood to a certain extent. Things like lego, learning an instrument, lots of reading are a certain way of doing things, which to me are fairly middle class. or educated if you like.

What I am getting at is what did this program really do for people who are doing things differently? or was it aimed at a certain type of person in the first place?

probably the latter.

SnortyBartFast · 30/04/2009 22:44

i could never afford the vtech, but i bet plenty of people fell for the mozart and omega, middle class types especially.

BigBellasBeerBelly · 30/04/2009 22:51

Maybe it's just me then!

I am obviously proficient at spotting a marketing ploy a mile off...

Actually you are right, on my post natal group people had baby tv, baby mozart dvd, all sorts of pinging toys and nonsense. I didn't really get it.

I still think that recommending learning a musical instrument before the age of 7, playing with "old fashioned" toys and looking at food labels are all things which are done almost automatically by some socio economic groups, and not others. (Or class, or education, or whatever you want to call it).

SuziSeis · 30/04/2009 22:55

loads of people i know fall for all this shit

kids glued on baby einstein dvd

kids tv = educational

let them play with a stick in dust and wear wellies squishing in mud - far more fun and feeding the imagination healthy stuff

BigBellasBeerBelly · 30/04/2009 23:04

Snorty my DH agrees with you and now he is going on and on at me!

Time for bed I think

KittyBigglesworth · 01/05/2009 03:02

I thought it was mediocre. The experiments lacked depth, some of them lacked proper comparison with available alternatives (eg. Frosties as a breakfast)and it didn't give breadth of information to make the findings valid. The experimental group was so small as to almost make it invalid. The focus purely on IQ, rather than physical health (stamina, strength,growth, immunity and emotional wellbeing) gave a skewed message, especially with the summary points at the end.

For example, the Frosties cereal. Her conclusion was that it's better to eat something than nothing as it will help cognitive function. Yes I agree with this to some extent. However that's not the whole picture. The Frosties cereal wasn't compared with other alternatives, for example, a non-sugar cereal (slow release carbohydrate)nor was a carbohydrate breakfast compared with one that contained some protein (like an egg or two)or purely protein. So how can one really draw any conclusion? How do we know that on a slow carb (wholegrain toast with a scraping of Oliveo/butter) along with some protein (an egg or two) might not have yielded even better results in cognitive tests? We simply don't.

Cognition isn't the be all and end all in terms of breakfast either. What about strength, stamina, immunity, eye health, growth snd a sense of wellbeing? The suggestion, whether she intended it or not seemed to be that a bowl of cereal like Frosities was sufficient for breakfast. I wouldn't think that just one bowl of cereal wouldn't keep a child satisfied for very long. I remember our biology tutor telling us as 14yr olds of importance of eating protein for breakfast for strength, alertness and growth. She was very dismissive of cereal as enough to start the day. The importance of eating some protein for breakfast has been well documented and yet this was glossed over as there wasn't enough of a 'shock' factor. Fat and protein slow the absorbtion of the sugar and tiny bit of fat is good for children. Cereal such as Frosties on its own creates a glycemic high followed by the inevitable dip a couple of hours later. Professor Reagan might not have found Frosties sugary but anybody with a brain knows that juice and jam also contain sugar! Did you notice the amount of Frosties cereal she was referring to? No, curiously enough it wasn't stated! The stated serving on the side of cereal packets is 30g! That's a quarter of a bowl. Many children (and myself included!) will fill the bowl to more than half or the top if they can! So that would double the sugar content straight away! The nutiritional content she spoke of in Frosties is mostly achieved through the addition of crude B vitamins and iron, not because the cereal flakes were particularly nutritious.

With the number of obese teeneagers on the increase and inextricably linked with that, diabetes too, I would have thought that it's pretty crucial that children aren't encouraged to eat too many sugary cereals nor get into the habit of eating them. The risk of diabetes and obesity is of more national importance than a few IQ points.

And what about the fish oil formulas? I found this too was flawed. I must have missed the part where she compared all the different brands and examined the amount of EPA in each formula and whether the PCBS had been removed or not. Boots don't sell one of the best reputable formulas anyway. She, I'm sure knows full well, that many parents and children don't take fish oils purely to increase cognitive performance but for other reasons such as decreasing inflammation, protecting the heart, lowering triglycerides and debatably increasing a sense of happiness and protecting against depression. This wasn't mentioned. One might say, "Well why should it? She was experimenting what increases IQ." However this was misleading. It could be argued that a sense of wellbeing and physical health could make it easier to concentrate and apply oneself to a subject. It also ignores the nature vs nuture consideration of IQ.

The only redeeming part of the programme was the discovery that Vtech have a numbskulled research dept. It was disturbing to discover that this company hadn't researched the input process adequately enough. Teaching a child to input umbers backwards could really confuse a child and could even wrongly give the impression that they're dyslexic fgs.

And what a funny litle research group for the testing of IQ and different toys. Remind me again, how many children were involved in the experiment and what was their age group? A handful of varying ages wasn't it? I noted that the child reading through the book with a pen that could be pointed on the page and read to her was dismissed. Personally, I found that to be a pity. Some parents are more educated than others and some have more time to read than others. Isn't a miracle in some sections of the UK that children even read books at all? Any sort of interest in a book should be applauded and if it takes this to do it, so be it. It's a start. Boys are reputably lagging behind in the reading stakes as it is. Of course parent interaction would be best, but we live in a far from ideal UK right now. As the marketing woman said it's not intended to substitute but to compliment conventional book reading. No, let's chuck that one out, how could it possibly stimulate the brain.

The more I think about the programme, the more flawed, flimsy, simplistic and headline grabbing, I think it was. The playing a musical instrument probably does increase IQ due to involvement of eye-hand coordination and the mental stimulation of learning an instrument. Does this mean that listening to music is so much less stimulating that it should be slung in the crap bucket? She triumphantly (ha!) trumped (ha,ha) the Mozart Effect author when she interrogated him however I get the impression that the conversation with him was heavily edited. He said that a child's IQ can't be measured but he must have been able to defend his finding with some form of tests that were conducted though? How does she conclude that the IQ of a child playing an instrument can be tested if a yet a child listening to Mozart can't? She didn't explain. In fact, what one test that was mentioned, concluded was that listening to any music can stimulate the brain. In that one experiment that was mentioned, the woman said that the results from listening to Blur were the same as listening to Mozart and only lasted for 15 minutes. Oh, shall we just dimiss listening to music with children then? Couldn't it be argued that listening to any music with a child might make them feel closer to the parent, happy, alive, loved, make them feel creative and prompt them to want to dance, get out some paint pots or just daydream? How do childhood tests for IQ predict future artistic ability for example? We weren't told. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that the effects of music and what it then stimulates the child to do is as short lived as 15 minutes and can't prompt any kind of long term wish to repeat the process and stimulate again.

This might sound cynical, but I think the Frosties conclusion was deliberately included to get her maximum newspaper coverage and prompt debate at the expense of well researched information. I've seen far better conducted scientific research on programmes from the BBC, sadly this wasn't one of them and I sincerely hope that Prof. Reagan hasn't any vested interest in Kelloggs.

flamingobingo · 01/05/2009 07:20

She said all that, Kitty! Were you actually watching the same programme I did?

arabicabean · 01/05/2009 07:39

Kitty - All my thoughts exactly, you have summed it up very well. I expected better from Prof Reagan, I hope she takes a more rigorous approach when it comes to her own work.

megcleary · 01/05/2009 07:45

Most people do not base their parenting on tv it was I believe informative, advising people to look at food packaging, play with their children and give a balanced diet.

Also I think it hinted at a long lost skill in the art of parenting common sense-disclaimer I do attempt commom sense but fail on occasion!

BigBellasBeerBelly · 01/05/2009 09:46

Well i thoroughly enjoyed it.

She covered a lot of your points in the program kitty.

And for her to cover every study done on every aspect of every product looked at it would have needed to be a open university course not an hour long program. And no-one would have watched it.

As an entertaining look at the fads and fashions surrounding some of the things we expose our children to, I thought it did a good job.

edam · 01/05/2009 10:00

Didn't see the programme but am a bit at the Frosties recommendation. There are plenty of other cereals that taste nice but contain far less sugar. If anyone is interested, google 'Which? + breakfast cereal' and you'll get a list.

(Kitty, unless you have your cereal dry, then of course you are getting protein.)

Learning an instrument before 7 is interesting. We have a music centre here and they don't recommend starting seriously much before then, in case children are put off before they have the right co-ordination and concentration.

Ds has been going to Ragamuffins there since he was two-ish, orginally playing with shakers and bells and moving towards understanding rhythm, loud/quiet, fast/slow etc. etc. so that they were ready to play a 'proper' instrument when they were older.

He's nearly six now and they've been learning about notes, reading/writing very simple things and playing 'A' or 'B' on the chine bars for the past year and trying out the junior clarinet/cornet and so on. They are only just starting to learn the recorder.

laweaselmys · 01/05/2009 11:56

There is nothing wrong with sugar. I was really pleased that supposedly 'crappy' cereals were given the ok - because they are not going to make your kids obese! There are far worse things in the world. Like cheese tbh.

Anyway re the toys, the ones that came top came top not because they were reminiscent of the past but because they are so incredibly open ended in what you can do with them. They can be physical (who says you have to sit down quietly with lego? you can take 'em outside make forts and throw lego bombs at each other if you want to!) I would have picked exactly the same, and I desperately wanted those stupid talking books when I was a kid!

BigBellasBeerBelly · 01/05/2009 11:57

She didn't actually recommend frosties edam, she said not to get too worked up about which cereal, if your child will only eat a more sugary one then give them that, the most important thing is they get something.

cereals were discussed as opposed to other things like egss as that's what most chldren get. I think the point was: better to let them have something that you're not 100% sure about that they will eat than have them go without. Interestingly they said that 20/30 years ago our diets actually contained much more sugar than they do now - certainly when I grew up in the 70's it was sugar in everything and loads of sweets etc, and we were all thin. The exercise is key isn't it really.

The musical instrument thing was based on looking at professional musicians who had been playing sonce before age 7/8, and they had very different brain structures to other people, which I'm sure is true. But then cabbies have different brain structures to ordinary people and I expect artists and lots of other sorts of people do too.

Lilymaid · 01/05/2009 12:09

The nutritionist from Kelloggs admitted that the biggest market for Frosties was amongst young men, not children! Although the format of the programme was a bit twee, the conclusions were fairly sensible. As for the fish oil, she merely stated that the scientific trials have been with children who were significantly underperforming at school. The trials showed some improvement in their performance. However, the main market for these oils will be for average to bright children and they had not been tested.

Blondeshavemorefun · 01/05/2009 18:05

whats wrong with bran flakes, porridge and weetabix for children?

cereal doesnt have to be ful of sugar

SuziSeis · 01/05/2009 20:42

agree blondes ( they do have more fun as well )

re diet - I am sceptical that our diets have less sugar than the 70's look at baked beans - steeped in sugar etc now and sweetners to move with our taste

bread too....

I think we need to re train our taste buds..i could barely eat a ready meal if someone forced me

the levels of salt and garlic puree numb ones taste buds...

My dd will not eat breakfast nicely, the boys have porridge ready brek weetabix meusli or bran flakes - i wont buy stuff with % sugar over 15-17 % that is high enough

I wont introduce 'crappy' breakfast cereals just for her and risk tooth decay and bad eating habits in my boys - just for one stubborn child

edam · 01/05/2009 20:46

ooh now I love salty food with garlic puree.

Oddly enough, whenever my blood pressure has been checked, it's always been on the low side of normal. Maybe I'm self-medicating with my love of salt?

SuziSeis · 01/05/2009 20:57

god i love salt

so much so that i have so self- apply in such volumes that if there were much already in it i might self destruct ,,,not tat i am a slug you understand!

KittyBigglesworth · 01/05/2009 21:00

Cereals like Frosties have very little protein. A 40g bowl of Frosties has 1.8g of protein and low fibre. Children need between 16-24 gms of protein a day. Wouldn't it be better to give them at least 8gm or more to set them up for the day? Protein is crucial for growth and one only has to read the action of each amino acid to know how important it is.

www.kelloggs.co.uk/products/Frosties/Cereal/Frosties.aspx

Note that the above information is per 100g.

The addition of milk will add some more protein but only a few grammes.

There is 15g of sugar per 40gm bowl, remembering that most children will try and fill the bowl to the top. This makes it just under 30gm of sugar. By contrast, a 40gm bowl of Branflakes contains 8.8g of sugar. So why not give a child that with a sliced banana or some strawberries on the top? Then they'll get some vitamin C, potassium and fibre too.

"We studied how 91 youngsters, ages 6 to 16, poured their cereal and found that, on average, they served themselves about 50 to 65 percent more than the suggested serving size for three of the four tested cereals. If the kids ate the entire average amount of Frosted Flakes they poured for themselves, they would get about 18 grams of sugar per serving"
Source: www.consumerreports.org/health/healthy-living/diet-nutrition/healthy-foods/breakfast-cereals/overvie w/breakfast-cereals-ov.htm

Too much sugar is never wise for the obvious reasons of obesity, diabetes etc. The news only recently reported how many children are suffering tooth decay compared with past decades. I don't believe that a cereal that coats your teeth in plaque and creates an insulin spike can create the optimum nutritional condition for concentration.

edam · 01/05/2009 22:37

Well of course cereals aren't high-protein foods. They are grains, not meat.

Is your point that cereals are not an ideal breakfast and children should be having a traditional fry-up or something?