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Original poster

Deborah 13 Servant of God

85 replies

UnquietDad · 12/03/2009 09:51

So didn't anybody watch this? I thought you'd be all over it!

I felt very sad for her. I thought her big brother touched on an element of the truth when he said that she shouldn't be dwelling on stuff like eternal damnation when she is just 13.

I found her questioning creepy - the way she painted people into a corner to make them admit they are "a bad person". As was the "what if one of them was hit by a bus and you hadn't spread the good news?"

One scene got me angry - Deborah and her brother leaning on the gate looking at the fields and mocking the Big Bang and saying you had to be "stupid" to believe such a belief. They sounded about 7. Hopeless.

I can understand her parents' desire to protect her from the ills of the world, but you don't do that by never letting your child actually go out and have a life. The way the documentary presented it, it's as if there are only two choices as a teenager - be an evangelical Christian not doing any "normal" teen things, or hang round the bus shelter smoking and drinking like that crowd she tried to spread the "good news" to. Hmm, funny how she didn't go round any of the orchestras, choirs, music groups, sports teams, youth clubs and so on which thousands of teenagers are involved in during the evening.

I also had to laugh at her father's touching naivety - no TV in the bedroom (which I approve of) but they can have computers. Ever heard of iPlayer, mate??

(Oh, and I don't have the world's best gaydar, so I may be totally off here, but I reckon Matthew is going to give Mum and Dad a bit of a surprise in a year or two...)

OP posts:

nannynick · 15/03/2009 20:38

What was the dad's comment - raising his own little nation - or something like that.
Brought back memory of Waco. That was a cult - but is it that much different? Is the dad organising his own cult?

Deborah seems to be intelligent, yet does not seem to be challenging things she reads in the Bible. Suppose that may come when she's older... she's been raised to believe that everything in their version of the Bible is true, accurate... not something to be challenged.

beanieb · 15/03/2009 20:41

Am watching it too. I think this kind of indoctrination is really sad. I hope that she has a happier life when she's out and about in the world on her own a bit more and that she is able to question the beliefs that she has been spoonfed. Not saying she shouldn't have faith but she seems so negative and so against anyone who isn't steeped in faith like she is.

beanieb · 15/03/2009 20:45

not a big fan of this which she links to on her blog.

alexw · 15/03/2009 20:53

Her version of the gospel is not one Jesus himself would recognise!! I was very {angry] and when I watched this the other night. For a young girl to truly believe she and others are really wicked and worthy of eternal damnation is worrying. Her lack of self esteem seen at the end of the program was very sad indeed.

beanieb · 15/03/2009 20:55

How did she even get into a club? watching now and her brother has taken her to a club! Says he won't dance toKaty Perry 'because I don't agree with it'

beanieb · 15/03/2009 20:58

Oh blimey, watching the end now. That poor poor girl.

Drusilla · 15/03/2009 21:02

She doesn't seem to smile ever. I found it really sad that a child of 13 should think she is such an awful, wicked person that she deserves to go to hell.

Yurtgirl · 15/03/2009 21:03

beanieb - I suspect that comment was because of the line "I kissed a girl and I liked it"

If it turns out as people on this thread seem to think - ie that Matthew is gay that would be an irony wouldnt it!

I found the whole program fascinating. What amazed me most was that they are trying so hard to get people to share their perspective, by evangelisisng but their method is so in your face ultimately seems to do nothing but insult people - which is hardly productive! The bit at the end was desperately sad too - she is going to have a huge shock when she discovers adulthood and the "real" world.

beanieb · 15/03/2009 21:07

Oh yeah, I knew why he didn't like it I hate it but not because of the lyrics, just because it's crap.

Interesting that he (the brother) finds himself coming back to the club all the time. I wonder if he is completely as 'good' as he seemed to want people to think he is?

KayHarkersHeartBelongsToTen · 15/03/2009 22:28

Well, like Deborah, I doubt that he sees himself as 'good'. I got the impression he was a bit embarrassed that he'd compromised to a certain extent.

Didn't get the gay thing, sorry - he just seemed like most of the boys at my church, softly spoken and sweet. Not unlike my husband, either. I'm the only gay in my church

I thought she was lovely. Astoundingly confident for her age, especially given there was a camera following her about. I'd be a big wibbly coward going up to a group of teens now - never mind when I was 13.

There were clearly some interesting dialogue edits - the inflection on some of the comments convinces me there were some 'but...' statements cut out to emphasize the hell thing.

I thought the dad's 'team' comment was something arising out of the size of the family. I enjoyed his response to 'What are you training them for?' I'm training my kids for eternity too.

Aside from the idyllic farm setting, it's not a million miles away from our lives here. So, having seen it, I'd just reiterate my initial comment, that she came across remarkably well, and she puts me to shame. I didn't read the last few seconds as a lack of self-esteem at all, I was crying with her, because she was talking about sins being taken away.

nikos · 15/03/2009 22:48

Setting aside her beliefs, I did think she seemed far more articulate than the teenagers they set her against. Thought the relationship between her and her brother was lovely and that they all seemed a good advert for home ed. She seemed genuinely unconcerned about what others thought of her and I found that quite refreshing in a 13 year old.

Alambil · 15/03/2009 22:52

Editing must have played a part in it, I agree Kay.

The thing is - she isn't obsessed with hell and damnation per se - she's just been raised in a very sheltered, evangelical Christian family which by its very nature demonstrates a belief in human beings being not-perfect, having "fallen" in the Garden of Eden and needing salvation from the perfect one - Christ. I rekon she meant "we would be going to hell if it wasn't for Jesus dying and me having a relationship with him and therefore absolving me of my sin...." but was, at 13, slightly too young to say it obviously.

I don't know - they just seemed like a nice family. A bit OTT on the tract handing out thing and the trying to save EVERYone, but essentially, just a nice family with nice kids.... she does need to learn that people don't necessarily want to be saved though and if they aren't interested, there's little point in forcing them to listen - but that comes with emotional and spiritual maturity.

and I don't think Matthew is gay; I think he's just a normal Christian bloke trying to find his way out of his sheltered upbringing into "the world" and stay relatively unscathed!

and to be frank, I admire him sitting down when the song came on - what's wrong with standing by and demonstrating your convictions in such an unharmful way, anyway?

nikos · 15/03/2009 23:04

It was interesting as well that Matthew's flatmates seemed really fond of him, so he seems to be settling well into the 'real' world.

Original poster

UnquietDad · 15/03/2009 23:13

beanie - I assumed that was a student disco. if student unions still work the same way they did "in my day", anyone can get in as a guest if a member signs them in.

I also thought the not dancing to Katy Perry thing was ridiculous and far too much like a look-at-me gesture by the brother. I mean, I don't necessarily "agree" that the sun, literally, always shines on TV, that I fought the law and the law won, or that you are, in fact, unbelievable - but that doesn't stop me dancing to A-Ha, the Clash or EMF.

Agree that his flatmates seemed fond of him, though. From their reaction to Deborah's "good person" questioning it's clear that he doesn't do this sort of thing to them.

OP posts:

KayHarkersHeartBelongsToTen · 15/03/2009 23:18

Think he might have started, though, from what he was saying at the end.

It's not unheard of for Christians to be liked by people who aren't Christians, you know. I sometimes like to hope that people don't cross to the other side of MN when they see me posting...

Original poster

UnquietDad · 15/03/2009 23:21

She only seemed far more articulate than the teenagers they set her against because they deliberately chose a bunch of not-especially-articulate teenagers lolling about in a bus shelter to set her against. I imagine it would have been a different story if she'd taken her aggressive questioning to, say, a school debating society or a kung-fu class or or any evening activity where more motivated and articulate teenagers could be found doing something more worthy than drinking and smoking in bus-shelters. The documentary implied that the latter was what the feckless, unChristian youth of Bridport got up to in the evening, which I imagine is far from the truth for 90% of them.

And what's wrong with not being perfect, anyway? If you're going to aspire to perfection you will always be disappointed. Far better to aspire to high, but theoretically reachable, pinnacles of human endeavour.

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KayHarkersHeartBelongsToTen · 15/03/2009 23:27

It wasn't the articulacy that impressed me - if anything, having seen the method used by others, I thought there were a number of things she could have done better. It was the courage of one youngster to approach a whole group of youngsters that impressed me. There was clearly more to it, given that she was with a Christian youth worker from what I could tell.

beanieb · 15/03/2009 23:30

She was articulate, but it sounded like she had been taught what to say and what she was saying wasn't very nice.

Original poster

UnquietDad · 15/03/2009 23:32

KayH - my comment about articulacy was referring back to comment by nikos at 22:48. Sorry for being unclear.
She obviously had a lot of confidence to approach them. It's just a shame, for her, that she blew it as soon as she had done so. She'd have got a lot further with a more touchy-feely, "do you ever think about God/ would you like to give church a try" approach.

OP posts:

KayHarkersHeartBelongsToTen · 15/03/2009 23:36

Aye, she may well have done UQD. Hopefully that's something she'll get her head round as gets older. Her brother seems to have, I know the church he attends, and it's quite a good one.

gomez · 15/03/2009 23:39

Surely not appropriate for any 13 year-old to be out recruiting to 'the cause'. She is a child, I find it faintly unnerving that any church would find this appropriate.

Original poster

UnquietDad · 15/03/2009 23:41

Not that it would work with me! My Christian friends have stopped asking me now. I think they have finally got the message...

OP posts:

KayHarkersHeartBelongsToTen · 15/03/2009 23:41

I'd like to see anyone try and convince her not to, tbh.

KayHarkersHeartBelongsToTen · 15/03/2009 23:43

UQD, lol, it's always fun talking to you about these things, though

gomez · 15/03/2009 23:48

Surely if her parents asked her not to she would, is parental obedience not key in this set-up - i.e. owned by her father and then her husband to paraphrase. I watched this last week and found the whole programme confirmed unpleasant (IMO) aspects of this type of fervent, evangelical lifestyle.

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