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Channel 4 >>>THE VIRGIN DAUGHTERS<<<

76 replies

RTKangaMummy · 25/09/2008 10:52

Tonight

Channel 4

OP posts:
lisad123 · 26/09/2008 00:22

I agree Lewisfan, and its not just the girls that are asked to wait, the boys are askd to wait for wedding day too.
I didnt see the show, have sky + it but my overall feeling is its a nice idea, and a good one but do wonder how much the fathers really need to know iyswim.

TeenyTinyTorya · 26/09/2008 00:28

It all seemed a bit weird to me. Ok, there's a well-meaning motive behind it, but it's a bit over the top.

dittany · 26/09/2008 00:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Gingerbear · 26/09/2008 00:32

What is wrong with kissing or sex before marriage?
I had to kiss an awful lot of frogs.....

Alambil · 26/09/2008 00:39

That is where they go slightly OTT... I mean, in my Christian life kissing (as in a peck - not snog) was fine.

Snogging and anything else - tongues or whatever, is - was (not practicing now) deemed too intimate, too close; too likely to release the hormones that would take over and make you want to go further... and having snogged since, it's true I think. That type of kissing gives your body the urge to do more. So some Christians stay away from it. Some from kissing totally, and some accept pecks on the cheek type.

I don't think taking a young child to these meetings is ideal perhaps, but her being exposed in a material way to the "no sex before marriage" theory helps cement it during their upbringing.

It sounds weird, I guess, but being raised this way and believing it myself I think I can see the theory behind their practises and understand the heart of the philosophy rather than just the outward actions.

I do have to wonder how primiscuous teens here would be if there were similar theories flying around and not covertly. I wish the Christian teens of our land were PROUD to wait, were PROUD to be seen to be holding off for the wedding... but they get ridiculed instead so it's all rather underground now

Gingerbear · 26/09/2008 00:45

But how can you be sure that person is 'the one' without kissing like that or having sex?
I would hate to have saved myself for someone and find we were totally incompatible sexually after we married.

There are two extremes here - promiscuity and never having sex until marriage. What is wrong with sex in a loving relationship even if you are not married?

Alambil · 26/09/2008 00:51

Ok, you're all going to call me a fruitloop and think I'm barmy... I'll probably be excommunicated but this is me; well, was me... this is what we (some Christians) believe.

We believe that God wouldn't land us with someone that's not compatible. Faith lends itself to believing that whoever you fall in love with and get engaged to is "the one" and that "one" is God's chosen for you, therefore it'll work out because it's all scribed in the big book in the sky... (that last bit is flippant, case you didn't realise )

Gingerbear · 26/09/2008 01:08

I don't think you are a fruitloop or barmy Lewisfan.
I respect your beliefs, but in the truest form of intelligent debate of opinions (so rare on MN these days). I would call a truce and agree to disagree with you on this one.

Gingerbear · 26/09/2008 01:10

ANd I really must be away to my bed now! Goodnight!

lisad123 · 26/09/2008 07:35

I have to say that i have heard that one loads of times. What is your sexually not right? BUT I truely believe the sex is just one part of marriage and not as important as all the other things you can learn about the person before you marry.
IT odd but the generation now have a higher divorse rate than say 50-70 years ago, where people often waited.
I remember getting the micky taken as i was still a virgin when i left school, and my dh was the same, but its a sad day when your weird because your a virgin at 15years, imo

southeastastra · 26/09/2008 08:30

i could only concentrate on their teeth! how white were they!

zippitippitoes · 26/09/2008 08:34

i thought that aout the teeth

obviously a sign of purity

chopchopbusybusy · 26/09/2008 08:56

This programme was every bit as weird as I expected it to be from the trailers. Hannah and her Dad reminded me of a ventriloquist and his dummy. I felt very sorry for the girls. I think it is interesting that the fathers must think that sex is one of the most important things in life... it can be great, but I don't focus all my thoughts on it.

jem1969 · 26/09/2008 09:01

I think if you want to wait fine- (glad I didn't!) and agree that we all want our daughters to to treated well, respected etc but agree that it was all the song and dance round it that made it creepy.
Also thought that brother was super creepy.
And also the father that was basically denying he had sex with his daughter and saying it in front of her- how bizarre was that? They were just having really inappropriate conversations for their ages in my opinion.
Hope my DD feels that she can discuss things with me when she's older but I really don't want us to have family discussions regarding her 'purity' at the age of 7 or so.
Can you IMAGINE not even kissing anyone until your wedding day . There are some hideous kissers out there...

zippitippitoes · 26/09/2008 09:02

i think that was my thinking they seemed obsessed with sex/purity

and reflected on their own lives with regret and wanted things to be different for their children

that is what is wronmg i think

trying to make up for something in your own life by controlling and brainwashing your children

so nothing wrong with choosing to wait if that is what you want to do but having the idea forced upon you is different

and the fear of these dads if you stray must be immense...

it is a very skewed kind of love

this is what used to happen when girls who got pregnant were put in asylums for life

i worked in a private psaychiatric clinic in ticehurst in the seventies and there was a woman who had been there since the 1920s for exactly that reason

kiddiz · 26/09/2008 09:48

Zippi..I worked in a nhs hospital which as basically a home for adults with learning difficulties. There were several female patients who had been there for decades for having got pregnant outside of marriage.

"its not just the girls that are asked to wait, the boys are askd to wait for wedding day too"
I thought it was interesting that, despite saying they expected boys as well as girls to save themselves for marriage, the daughter who was married to the bloke who had been away for 5 of their 6 month engagement admitted that she wasn't his first. This apparantly wasn't a problem to her father when he "chose" a suitable husband which clearly shows that male and female virginity and "purity" are viewed completely differently by these men.

kiddiz · 26/09/2008 09:48

Zippi..I worked in a nhs hospital which as basically a home for adults with learning difficulties. There were several female patients who had been there for decades for having got pregnant outside of marriage.

"its not just the girls that are asked to wait, the boys are askd to wait for wedding day too"
I thought it was interesting that, despite saying they expected boys as well as girls to save themselves for marriage, the daughter who was married to the bloke who had been away for 5 of their 6 month engagement admitted that she wasn't his first. This apparantly wasn't a problem to her father when he "chose" a suitable husband which clearly shows that male and female virginity and "purity" are viewed completely differently by these men.

kiddiz · 26/09/2008 09:49

sorry my internet connection is playing up

DrNortherner · 26/09/2008 09:53

What amzed me is that a boy had to ask the girls father if he was allowed to get to know his daughter better - so the Dad decided.

What if he takes years to say yes? What if he chooses the wrong man?

It's all bollocks and about control imo. Saying it aves them from heartbreak and abusive relationships is utter tosh.

sleepycat · 26/09/2008 09:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DrNortherner · 26/09/2008 09:57

I am thankful for all the sexual partners I had before dh. I would have hated to have married the guy I first had sex with - he was crap

jem1969 · 26/09/2008 09:58

Discussing this on the Wright Stuff Channel 5 at the moment

expatinscotland · 26/09/2008 09:58

i'm thankful my parents had better things to be interested in than my sex life, especially when i was 6 or 11.

skyatnight · 26/09/2008 11:29

I watched this on +1 last night. I agree with a lot of what has been said here. It was creepy. It was patriarchal. It did feel inappropriate for girls of 11 or whatever to be thinking about 'purity' and saving themselves. They should just be playing at that age.

But I have mixed feelings about it. With modern media, the world is a very sexualised place and some naive girls do need some protection. (Ask most women the question and they will admit that someone (usually an older man) at some point, manipulated and took sexual advantage of them without it being actual coercion.) Sometimes parents do know best but, these days, it is expected for children to rebel and make their own choices and for parents to let go and not interfere. Virginity is no longer valued and yet some women are still seen as 'slags' and some men still cannot handle the idea of their girlfriend having had a sexual history with other men. There are still double standards. I like to see myself as a feminist but not every woman has benefited from 'sexual emancipation'. It does not suit all women and it sometimes seems like it has benefited men more than women. That women get the raw end of the deal and that our status has been diminished by it rather than liberated.

One thing that struck me was that the attention these Dads paid to their daughters could (if it is handled correctly) have the effect of helping their self-esteem. I found the large family that ran the purity ball creepy and a bit Stepfordy but when the father (whose hair looked like a wig because he had no sideburns) said about girls not believing they are beautiful, not having a lot of self-worth, I could sympathise with what he was saying. The 'blessing' ceremony that they do each week is weird (especially as he says the same about each child apart from the meaning of their name) but it is a formalised way of telling each child that they are important. He said he had to keep telling them until they believed it.

It is true that children need this help sometimes. Life is so complicated now that it is easy to lose your way. Girls' first relationship with the opposite gender is usually with their Dad and it is important that it is a good relationship, that makes them feel valued and secure and respected as a female person. I agree with this aspect of what these people are doing.

In our modern world, some Dads are cuddly and intimate with their girl children when they are small but then, because of taboos, back off when they are teenagers and can become a bit distant, leaving the bulk of the care up to the mother during the teenage years. I am sure there are those of you that would say this wasn't true for you, that your Dad was your best friend. But I believe I was affected by this. It was a difficult time for my family and then my Mum died and my Dad became very withdrawn and depressed for several years. I have gone on to have low self-esteem, to be very co-dependent on men and have ended up as a single mother after a failed relationship. It cannot all be put down to a lack of close relationship between my father and me at that time, but I think it was a factor.

My dd is now growing up without her father (who has declined to be in her life thus far) and I am worried about what effect this will have on her in terms of relationships with men in the future. The statistics indicate that she is likely to be affected to some degree unless I can provide her with another, or more than one, good, consistent encouraging male role models.

So what I want to say is that, although a lot of aspects of this purity movement, and the way it is formalised, do seem a bit creepy, I can sympathise/empathise with some of the aims. It would be wrong to force someone to marry a person of the father's choice, it would be wrong to reject a child because they refuse to go along with your will, but it is good to teach children that they have value in themselves (not just in terms of what they achieve or how sexually attractive they are) and that sexuality and love are part of that value and not to be wasted or abused. Because sexuality and love are very important to our self-esteem, especially in our teenage years and 20s, and experimentation with (sexual) relationships does not always benefit us or make us feel good about ourselves.

There are, of course, other ways of teaching children to value themselves, other ways of promoting self-esteem and self-respect (than having strange balls where girls take pledges and dance with their fathers).

Very long-winded and waffly as usual but the programme did strike a chord with me.

motheroftwoboys · 26/09/2008 13:53

My DH found this so disturbing he had to stop watching. My two DSs just thought they were all weirdos. I agree . So many jaw dropping comments. One girl, struggling to find the commandment that forbad sex before marriage, through it was Thou shall not committ adultery! Another father's reasoning for girls not to have boyfriends was he didn't want them getting sexually transmitted diseases/cervical cancer etc! As AP said, it seemed to be confusing promiscuity with a "normal" sex life. Also, not everyone event wants to get married these days! Personally I do not think that one should be a virgin before marriage - and that is speaking as a practising Christian. I would think it would be difficult to find any clergy that would preach that gospel! However, I agree that should be a matter of choice to any man or woman. However, not being allowed to kiss is ludicrous. I also found the idea of a boy having to be vetted by a father really sick making.