The Quran, Channel 4, 8pm: anyone going to watch?

[policywonk]

Heard this guy (he also made Death of a Princess) interviewed on the radio last week. He sounds really interesting.

Also, did you know that there's a theory that Islam grew out of a dissident Christian sect?

Aitch - Cheeky request: if I CAT you , would you be able to send me a copy of the DVD?

Mwah mwah...

I defy ANYONE to give me a definition of wahHabism. It is a made up term meaning absolutely nothing. The documentary was VERY misleading.

apols for lack of diacritical marks:

'Wahhabiya. An ultra-conservative, puritanical Muslim movement adhering to the Hanbalite law, although it regards itself as non-adherent to parties, but defending truth. It arose in Najd during the 18th century. Its founder [was] Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab... and from then on the Saudis became the main supporters of the movement. They believe that the Muslims have abandoned their faith in the One God (tawhid) and have distorted Islam through innovations (bid'a) which run counter to pure Islam: 'All objects of worship other than Allah are false, and all who worship such are deserving of death' (Abd al-Wahhab). The Wahhabis accept only the Quran and the authentic Sunna, and reject 1,400 years of development and interpretation in Islamic theology. They oppose any veneration of saints and tombs, prohibit any decoration of mosques, ban luxure, and forbid any importation of kafir culture. All Muslims who do not support their creed are regarded as heretics, especially the Shia, who are considered the arch-enemies of Islam.'

(The Oxford Dictionary of World Religions, ed. John Bowker, OUP, 1997)

Well you did ask

What was your objection to the doc?

I found this prog really interesting. Can anyone recommend any books/further info sources? I'm not looking for anything really scholarly but a general interest comparative religion type commentary on the Quran would be interesting reading I think

let me find it first, blu, and then but of course. a CAT from you always welcome.

Gloria, here's the Channel 4 site link for the programme, which has lots of links on it (including versions of the Quran). The dictionary I quoted from below has a further reading list, but I can't vouch for any of them personally (but I can post the titles here if you'd like).

Similarities between Islam and Christianity are to be expected, for the God of Islam says he is the God of Christianity. Quran talks in quite interesting detail about Mary, mother of Jesus, and says Christianity was led astray and hence the need for a new messenger (Mohammad).

if you could post a handful of titles Policywonk, that would be great. The websites are interesting but i'm looking for a book I can take on holiday - i usually take a popular science book (sad sack that I am ) but, inspired by the prog, I fancy a "popular Islam" book this year

Only got round to watching it last night, very interesting i thought (did you read Charlie Brooker's rave revies in the grauniad?)
I wondered if it was quite 'western' centred, and interested that PJC thought it OK, would be interested in views from other Muslim MNers. Sherezade, what did you find misleading? The FGM scenes were very upsetting (I would have liked a warning about this, tbh)- and I know it needs saying that this isn't an Islamic practice, this was made quite clear, but I'd have liked to hear about some positive aspects of Islam, such as views on the environment, social justice etc. I suppose it felt a bit defensive, kind of 'no, actually we don't all do/think that...'

bump for any more views, esp from Muslim Mners?

Yes it was a bit defensive but tbh, it had to be as so many people have misconceptions about Islam that a clear cut no we don't agree with fgm, we don't agree with fundamentalist Imams preaching hatred against the West

As for social justice and environment - what kind of things do you want to know?

There was a programme on C4 tonight about some Muslims going to Mecca, narrated by the lovely Art Malik. The mosque architecture was just gorgeous. Thought it was the same thing you are all talking about, but I don't think it can be.

MLE - Yes, the Charlie Brooker thing was interesting. Actually I didn't find this at all hard to watch (but then I was dog-tired so happy to sit stock still for two hours, and there were so many lovely images to look at, which helped).

I also thought it was quite Christian-centred, as well as western-centred - I find the theories about the connection to Christianity fascinating, but not sure that it's the most relevant thing to be said about Islamic theology.

There was a warning about the FGM, both before the prog started and at the end of the ad break before the FGM images. I couldn't watch them at all.

I'd also like to know what Sherezade thought in more detail - I didn't know that the existence of Wahhabism was so controversial.

I think I would have liked more about the Hadith and sharia law - but I suppose these aren't the Quran, obviously.

Kay - no, this was a two-hour doc about the Quran on Monday night - very interesting. I'd iPlayer it if I were you - it would be interesting to hear what you think.

Books for Gloria:

A J Arberry, The Koran Interpreted
K Cragg, The Event of the Quran
Fazlur Rahman, Major Themes of the Quran
A Rippin, Approaches to the History of the Interpretation of the Quran
W M Watt, Bell's Introduction to the Quran

I suppose I'm interested to hear some positive things, about the ethical teachings of the Qu'ran- I thought they did a very good job showing the variety within Islam, and especially the the tradition of scholarship and enquiry, but the debates sround women's roles and veils etc have been done so many times. Eg we are familiar (in this country, UK) with Chritian inspired/led movements for social justice, which would i guess ultimately be inspired by the Bible, I'd like to know about the Islamic parallels. Maybe because, as a humanist I'm interested in what faith drives people to do in the world. But maybe it wasn't the right programme for that.

Ahh - Sharia law is from the Qu'ran.

Hadith is the sayings of the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) and his words/actions are based on how the Qu'ran told him to life his life so it goes hand in hand with the Qu'ran if that makes sense? You can buy books about Hadith from Amazon - just type it in and see what comes up

Hmm....like criminal punishment, the order of society and in the case of ethical living - charity and things like that? Just asking so I can make sure that if I am able to answer your query, I do it correctly!!

Yes Puss - I mean, I'd have been interested in the contradictions/similarities betwen the Quran and the Hadith and sunna, and how things like the debates about women, conflict, etc are continued in there.

For instance, I know I've said this to you before and you disagreed strongly, but some people say that FGM is sunna (according to the Bowker book from which I quoted below: Bowker is a pretty impeccable source IMO - Professor of Religion at Cambridge).

Ahhh - I can't help you there. Sadly my knowledge is not good enough to be able to discourse knowledgeably on that...although technnically, as the Hadith is the sayings of the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) and the Sunnah is the life/deeds of the Prophet - it should be very similar to the Qu'ran...but I'm still at the beginning of my journey into Islam so don't know that much to get into comparisons iyswim? Google Amr Khaled - he is a star in the Middle East - moderate scholar of Islam and he is BRILLIANT! His website has a lot of information and translations of his programmes that are on Iqra (an Arabic TV channel)...

I am sure there are some schools of thought that say FGM is Sunnah but its not Islam...will have to do some more digging and see what I can find...nice that you are so interested though - I love talking about Islam

FGM is not a Muslim tradition. It is an African tradition.

African Muslims do it. African Christians do it. The vast majority of Muslims elsewhere in the world don't do it.

PJC, yes, I mean society and charity and so on...I thought they covered law and punishment quite well, for example fascinating to hear that Sharia law only insists on punishment if criminal is unrepentant. I thought the court they showed looked interesting, too but I wondered if a more informal style would be more open to abuse (not like our British courts of course, oh no)

policywonk - I wouldn't claim to be an authority on the subject, but my understanding is that there is no doubt that FGM is not 'sunna'. There are some who say there is a 'hadith' where Mohammad allegedly said it is OK if not cut too deep but the authenticity/credibility of that is pretty poor. (All hadith are classified thus - i.e. how many people witnessed Mohammad say it, were they identified, who said it to whom etc)

This is why FGM is so rare in the Muslim world. If it were indeed considered sunna, you would see it much more prevalent.

Thanks for the clarification Cote. Obviously there are those (even if not many, relatively speaking) who disagree though.

I don't have any desire to argue that FGM is sunna - it's just that it's obviously one of the areas in which there's an ongoing debate (just as Christians can't make up their minds whether homosexuals are an abomination or not).

Anyway I don't want to go on and on about fgm - I agree with you that it's primarily cultural (although as an atheist, I'd say that all religious beliefs are the product of culture), and I'm sure there's not a single poster on MN who would ever defend it.

Basically, I'd like Thomson (or maybe even - gasp! - a Muslim commentator) to make a companion documentary about hadith and sunna and sharia law.

Well, I'm still in the beginning of all my knowledge but...here goes!

Charity:
There are five pillars or basic tenets of Islam and one of them is Zakat (which means charity). It is compulsory, if you have the financial means to do so, to give charity in Islam. It doesn't have to be financial, it can be other ways also. At the end of Ramadan (the month of fasting) you have to give to charity to complete the fast. Some people have an animal killed and the meat donated to the poor, others give money. The amount of money depends on your income. You give to charity for many other reasons to - for example, when you have new baby, you bless the birth by thanking God for the blessing. If someone dies, you can donate in their name, if you have good news even - you can donate for that! Its considered very important as a Muslim to be charitable.

This is of course, a very basic overview, but you can see how the focus on being charitable helps society as a whole.

As for justice, well, Islamic justice is dictated by Sharia law and is pretty complex and I don't know that much but its more about the good of society as a whole - no pussyfooting around the rights of the criminal. I'm not talking about human rights abuses here but none of this burglars being able to sue the houseowner because they clubbed them with a bat for breaking in sort of thing!!!