Our Flag Means Death: Thread 3. It's still utterly brilliant. We are still obsessed.

[TriceratopsRocks]

Ahoy again mateys! Set sail aboard thread 3 where we still wax lyrical about our favourite show, its cast, its music, fan edits, fan fiction and more 😁(there may also be just a little obsessing over our fabulous leads - pictures extremely welcome)!

If you haven’t yet seen Our Flag Means Death, what are you waiting for? Go watch it (on BBC iPlayer), then come back here and join us. But be warned, some of you may find yourself as hooked as we are 🎣.

You may have heard that this is a comedy about pirates and think it's not for you. But it’s actually a show about self-discovery, healing and found-family with a love story at its heart. The joint leads are both damaged by abusive backgrounds and want what the other has. The show is about their healing and their respective journeys. It’s tender, romantic, funny, emotionally intelligent and utterly refreshing. It subverts genre expectations. There is comedy, absurdity and a good amount of heartbreak and despair - sometimes in the same scene! The acting is outstanding (Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby especially). But the writing, music, costumes, sets, the sheer attention to detail – for a show with only 18 half-hour episodes it is still keeping us talking, two full threads and many re-watches later.

If you think this might appeal, do watch it and come back and talk to us. It would be lovely if more were to join our crew. But it's a show that needs time. The 2nd lead arrives in episode 3, so you need to give it at least 4 episodes as that’s when the tone changes and the main story starts. It still took me several more episodes to fully appreciate what I was watching, but by then I was hooked and had to immediately watch it all over again. If you like Good Omens, What We Do in the Shadows, Ghosts or even Bridgerton, this might be the show for you.

(I’ve kept this spoiler free, but if you scroll down you will no doubt find many, so beware!)

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5008593-our-flag-means-death-its-utterly-brilliant-and-i-am-obsessed?reply=135294204
Thread 2 : https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5076581-our-flag-means-death-thread-2-still-utterly-brilliant-and-we-are-still-obsessed?reply=136060611

Staying with 2.3 a bit. This post is from filmandy's Instagram. He was the cinematographer and there are some nice comments and videos of his time on the show, including the comments in this post.

www.tumblr.com/ourflagmeansbts/735709426397380608/source-season-2-october-9th-2023-filmandy?source=share

And a little post I like from something on Samba's Instagram. I love them playing and having fun on set 😁

www.tumblr.com/dallonismysavior/742427239436763136/this-is-ed-and-stede-and-this-is-taika-and-rhys?source=share

@TriceratopsRocks thank you! I love hearing about the creatives behind the show and how they work.

Ooh in that case you might like this. It's a long and detailed interview with Sam Nicholson and David van Dyke about how they created and filmed those big seascapes for that enormous screen they used. I found it really interesting - especially little details about how they would sometimes use Wee John to sit in particular places on the edge of shot to hide bits of background where the sea and sky might not join properly 🤣

The link is to an article. The interview I mean is the first video in that article. Enjoy!

amplify.nabshow.com/articles/creat-virtual-production-sort-of-real-pirates-our-flag-means-death/

Oh, there are several other links in the article which are also worth watching, but you may have seen the others already. There's a lovely little short video that is a montage of beautiful show scenery set to music. But the big VFX interview is why I had the link saved.

@CarpeDiem83 I started reading the first story last night on your recommendation and finished it this morning. Thank you so much for the reminder as I too skipped over this one as the setting and time-period didn’t appeal. How wrong was I! Moving the story to the 1950s really heightens the stakes and Stede’s character journey makes a lot more sense. It’s so well-written and immersive. The blue hotel room scenes is some of the best characterisations of Ed and Stede I have ever read. This is god-tier writing! Can’t wait to read the sequels.

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I came across this article today. It's something we've talked about before so I thought I'd share it 😃. It certainly is lovely and refreshing that everyone in our show looks so normal. I hadn't really thought about whether the desire the various characters in our show have for each other is also unusual, but I don't tend to watch a lot of modern films/TV.

skyuni123.medium.com/the-glorious-imperfection-of-our-flag-means-death-3d30c686907d

@TriceratopsRocks I love that! This line is beautiful:

“For once, the intimacy is wrapped into the narrative and treated as something important and beautiful”

That's a lovely article, @TriceratopsRocks I like this point: 'There is never any body-shaming, nothing that suggests that any of these folk feel obliged to drag themselves to fit their looks into a certain box.'

It's so well done, across the whole cast, but I think having two romantic leads who are both gorgeous but definitely look their ages is an important part of the show. They’re not glossy or over made up. There are plenty of wrinkles and while there’s soft lighting sometimes, I never feel that they’re trying to light them in the most flattering way possible at all times in a way that other shows might have done. Even Ed, who is so ridiculously beautiful, is a particularly beautiful version of a normal person, rather than an airbrushed (if that’s still the term) image of perfection – he’s real, with wrinkles and sun damage and grey hair that hasn’t always just been brushed.

I think this article also manages to explain something of what is so special about our show, and why it just feels a bit different to anything else. It's all so carefully and cleverly done.

'In fact, OFMD's great unsung victory is the way it adjusts its visual language to fit such a dizzying range of tones. Some scenes are dramatic and grounded, featuring sweeping landscapes and intense performances. Others rely on Looney Tunes cartoon logic. The show exists on a sliding scale of realism, echoing the surreal detours and cheerfully phony studio sets of classic movie-musicals like Singin' in the Rain.'

'These moments of visual unreality are crucial to a world where characters routinely shrug off life-threatening wounds, process emotional upheaval through 1980s power ballads, or sail halfway across the Caribbean in a single episode. To use Blackbeard's own terminology, Our Flag Means Death thrives on f---ery.'

And I love this because I think it every time I watch 1.7: '...stride along tourist paths in "jungles" that were clearly filmed in some kind of public garden.'

https://www.tvguide.com/news/our-flag-means-death-max-visibly-fake-special-effects/

Two really interesting articles, thank you!

The Medium author must be pretty young though. You don't have to look far to find realistic people on film. Anything that says 'Funded by Arts Council England' in the credits or in some kind of independent film festival or cinema will give you that. Or most non American telly. Or anything made a few years ago.

I had a lovely binge on The Reno Cure yesterday. Well written, excellent sense of social menace and so much research. Must be roughly contemporary with the pre story of Tales of the City (childhood of Anna Madrigal).

That's another really good article. Thank you @lizziesaurusx . The writer has got it spot on about it working so well because it's not realistic. I liked:

"So when Blackbeard hits rock bottom, his ship becomes a dark, roiling embodiment of inner torment, dousing the deck with gouts of seawater. At other times, water is irrelevant to any "sailing" that allegedly takes place in this show."

"How big is the moon in Our Flag Means Death? As big and as close as it needs to be. A real moon just wouldn't work as well."

So we have the Jenkins school of scenic accuracy to go with his more famous school of historical accuracy. Sam Nicholson and David van Dyke really did a wonderful job. I would recommend that technical interview I linked just upthread to anyone who is interested in the cinematography.

I think having two romantic leads who are both gorgeous but definitely look their ages is an important part of the show.

Absolutely. It's ridiculous really that looking like normal people is so unusual. It may be another reason why so many people see themselves in the show. Although sadly I don't know anyone who looks like Ed or Stede in RL, or who has their sheer charisma!

I don't know anyone who looks like Ed or Stede in RL, or who has their sheer charisma!

Me neither, but it's just as well - if I saw anyone who looked like Ed in real life I would probably keel over, lost for words. If I saw Stede I'd want run up to him and give him a hug, then sit with him on the side of a ship, swinging our legs, talking about his library.

One of the many things I liked about Constellationism is that Ed is fully aware of his own charisma and can turn it on and off at will when he wants something...

Thank you for the above articles, guys. I love how natural everyone is from Ed’s scrunchy-nose and eye-creases to Stede’s forehead furrows and right-cheek pimple.

I really like the second article too as it recognises that OFMD is a play. And there are plays within the play. I think many audiences today are not familiar with how theatre works. We are ground down by TV’s gritty realism in terms of sets, plots and pacing, juxtaposed with unrealistic-looking and behaving characters. And our show subverts this entirely. It’s the look of the characters which is real, their behaviours are emotionally real, and everything else is up for grabs!

Ed and Stede’s ships are stages. Each has a different play going on. One is the production of Blackbeard. That’s been running a long time. Like Phantom of the Opera. New in town is The Gentleman Pirate. It’s avant grade. Not everyone gets it. It might have a short run. Then Blackbeard switches plays and all bets are off.

I’ve seen comments from people upset with inconsistencies with time in the show. The incongruity of 2.5 - 2.6. Pete and Lucius have only been engaged for 24 hours, but more time seems to have passed as Ed is out of the rice sack already. Yes, possibly editing, time constraints etc. but it really doesn’t matter. Anyone who has studied Othello knows time doesn’t make sense in it. It doesn’t make sense in Romeo and Juliet either. It’s about the vibe. People don’t know how to understand art anymore. Is this what two decades of reality tv has done to a generation?

Reading these two articles just makes me so sad all over again that we were cheated out of our ending, and that this show still does not have the recognition it deserves. I’ve said before, they invented a new genre here. It’s still undefinable to me. It’s magical.

The second article posted made me realise what I found familiar about OFMD.

It's essentially opera. You suspend disbelief (about the timing, the sea, the stabbings, the magical realism, etc) because it works and you want to. And your unreasonable love for it is awfully hard to explain to the unconverted!

@Phineyj It's essentially opera. Nailed it.

@TriceratopsRocks 'At other times, water is irrelevant to any "sailing" that allegedly takes place in this show.'

That quote is excellent - I hadn't really thought about it before, but that's so true – for a sea-based show there’s hardly any actual sailing. The sea is sometimes a plot device, or almost a character itself, in 2.2 and 2.3. The rest of the time it may as well not be there - they could be on dry land land. But I love that they don’t even try to get into any practical details about sailing – as @MrsJellybee rsjellybee says, the ships are really stages rather than sailable boats.

The only friend I've recommended the show to really didn't like it and her main objection was she felt it was clunky and the effects were obviously fake - she even mentioned the fact the ship doesn't move, and the unrealistic rowing boats! But you're spot on, @MrsJellybee, that 'It’s the look of the characters which is real, their behaviours are emotionally real, and everything else is up for grabs!'. The article talks about 'vibes-based storytelling' – that prioritising of the story being driven by characters who behave with emotional sincerity and earnestness means it taps into our emotions, so we feel connected to the show and affects us at a deep level. I can’t think of anything else that has bewitched me quite this much and I do spend quite a bit of time trying to work out why.

I also like the point about the contrast between Stede and Ed's imagined reunions/dream sequences, which highlights their different perspectives on stereotypes of masculinity at this point in the show. So Stede is swashbuckling, sword-carrying and in the real world in his imagined reunion - he's the pirate he thinks he'd like to be, whereas Ed imagines something creative, sparkly, less stereotypically masculine - a fantasy world where he's freed from being bound to piracy.

I’ve been pondering the set design today as I’m not sure I initially agreed with the comments, but then I thought I was probably mixing up quality (as in skilful execution) with realism. For eg the quality of the ship and attention to detail is wonderful - the sails and rigging move and the whole ship is continually rocking. But the effect is deliberately theatrical. No idea if I’m making sense, I do have a crazy headache today in my defence!

Jenkins is a playwright by background isn’t he.

OFMD has definitely got me back into theatre. I probably go to the RSC just once a year now sadly. I’m off to London to see Mnemonic soon and planning to explore more locally too.

@BillStickersIsInnocent Jenkins is a playwright by background isn’t he I didn’t know that! But nothing has ever made more sense.

But the effect is deliberately theatrical The whole thing is. Stede’s Captain quarters are ridiculous. I mean, Nigel’s correct. Let’s be fair. The Gentleman Pirate, and all of Ed’s incarnations are over-the-top panto. The figurehead of the ship is a unicorn! Both Nigel and Ed refer to it as a toy boat, and it is. It’s a child’s toy made large. It’s fine for someone to not like magical realism, but it isn’t a problem that needs to be fixed. It’s simply a genre someone doesn’t like.

The only friend I've recommended the show to really didn't like it and her main objection was she felt it was clunky and the effects were obviously fake - she even mentioned the fact the ship doesn't move, and the unrealistic rowing boats!

@TriceratopsRocks Oh, that makes me so sad! 😢 I once worked for a Head of English who never went to the theatre because she couldn’t suspend her disbelief that she was watching people pretend on a stage. People are engaging wrongly. You’re not supposed to suspend your disbelief. You’re supposed to emotionally engage with the subject and art form. Not say, ohh look at Ian McKellen pretending to be Prospero. Although I really struggled watching David Tennant as Hamlet… for many reasons.

*for a sea-based show there’s hardly any actual sailing....
the unrealistic rowing boats! *

The rowing boats are hilarious. They even row them backwards sometimes so the cast are sitting the right way for the shot, e.g. in 1.5 Olu and Frenchie should have been facing Ed and Stede, but they sit facing the camera instead so we can see all 4 of their faces with the burning ship in the background. Utterly ridiculous, and almost impossible to row that way, but it doesn't matter 🤣

The only friend I've recommended the show to really didn't like it and her main objection was she felt it was clunky and the effects were obviously fake

It is a shame, @lizziesaurusx. I think it shows just how similar lots of TV is nowadays, so when someone does something different it might feel 'wrong' rather than original. Someone on thread 1 (I can't remember who) said something about the pilot feeling like a poor sixth form production. The funny thing is that I understand what they mean, but that's just part of the charm. As @BillStickersIsInnocent said, the quality of the design is phenomenal, but it's all deliberately designed to be OTT - theatrical. @MrsJellybee I love your phrase "magical realism". It's about suspending disbelief, like that rowboat in 1.5. Noone expects realism on a stage, but nowadays people do seem to expect it from a TV show aimed at adults (I think this is why at first it reminded me of Ghosts/that original Horrible Histories team - kids TV is still allowed to be OTT and theatrical and parts of the show has a similar vibe). Thinking of the show as theatre, or opera @Phineyj, is just perfect.

I've always read/watched a lot of sci-fi/fantasy, and I also think this helps. Good fantasy books/shows can do what they like as long as it is internally consistent and makes sense in the world that they are in. You can believe anything as long as it fits the universe they have created. In our show, that's why any incongruences don't matter. They have created this beautiful universe with so much attention to detail - the writing, the set design, the cinematography, the music, the costumes - they all combine to make a perfectly realised fantasy world. It isn't supposed to look or feel like 'real life'. That's the job of the actors - their performances, characterisations and emotions are absolutely, perfectly real. They've been given a beautiful stage on which to perform their story, which they do with such believability, sincerity and care. As you say, @MrsJellybee, it's art, and it's wonderful.

I also didn't realise that DJenks' background was in theatre - thank you for that info. I looked him up and he's a trained actor who started writing plays, then formed his Human Animals production company so those plays could get performed (noone else wanting to take a chance on an unknown playwright).

@lizziesaurusx The only friend I've recommended the show to really didn't like it and her main objection was she felt it was clunky and the effects were obviously fake - she even mentioned the fact the ship doesn't move, and the unrealistic rowing boats! Sorry, it was your friend who said this. I tagged the wrong person yesterday. I’m multitasking like a loon at the moment. But that is so sad. Well, as someone else said once, I think @Phineyj, we are clearly discerning viewers, and many people just won’t get it.

I love that Olu wears crocs, that the cover for Stede’s best shovel is a Crown Royal Bag c.1939. That Blackbeard says ‘My bad’, that Ned Lowe says ‘Lols’.

They’re playing with us, the audience. They’re having fun and letting us in on the joke and the fact this is theatre.