Our Flag Means Death: Thread 2. Still utterly brilliant and we are still obsessed!

[TriceratopsRocks]

Ahoy there mateys! Hop aboard our ‘safe space ship’ thread 2, where we can continue to wax lyrical about our favourite show.

If you haven’t yet seen Our Flag Means Death, what are you waiting for? Do go watch it (on BBC iPlayer) and then come back here and join us.

You may have heard that this is a comedy about pirates and think that's not for you. But it’s actually about self-discovery, healing and found-family with a love story at its heart. It does begin as a sort of pirate workplace comedy, but in episode 4 the tone changes and that’s where the main story really starts. The joint leads are both damaged by abusive backgrounds and think they want what the other has. The show is about their healing and their respective journeys. It’s tender, romantic, funny, emotionally intelligent and utterly refreshing. It subverts genre expectations. There is comedy, absurdity and a good amount of heartbreak and despair - sometimes in the same scene! The acting is outstanding (Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby especially). But the writing, music, costumes, sets, the sheer attention to detail – for a show with only 18 half-hour episodes it is still keeping us talking, a full thread and many re-watches later. Can you tell how much I love it?

If you think this might appeal, do watch it, then come back and talk to us. It would be lovely if more were to join our crew. But be aware it's a show that needs time. The 2nd lead doesn’t arrive until the end of episode 3 and that’s when the main story starts. You need to give it at least 4 episodes. It then took me several more to fully appreciate what I was watching but then I was hooked - and had to immediately watch it all over again. If you like Good Omens, What We Do in the Shadows, Ghosts or even Bridgerton, this might be the show for you.

(I’ve kept this spoiler free, but if you scroll down you will no doubt find many, so beware!)

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5008593-our-flag-means-death-its-utterly-brilliant-and-i-am-obsessed?reply=135294204

@MrsJellybee Not just the mutiny memories, but past trauma.

I wasn't thinking so much about the mutiny but about Ed's memory of watching Felix being eaten by a crab - unimaginably brutal - and the things he must've experienced as a boy on a pirate ship. I hadn't thought about him feeling safe or unsafe while asleep but that's so right. Ed feeling safe enough to fall asleep next to Stede is like Stede carrying on having a conversion with Ed despite finding out he's Balckbeard because instinctively he feels safe with him.

There's a fan fic where Ed and Stede meet on a beach as children and exchange gifts, then meet again decades later. I can't remember the name or whether it was recommended on here, but I think it's the one that has Ed and Izzy as 11/12 year olds having to defend themselves against some very predatory behaviour. I might be confusing two different fics, but it did make me think about the back story that we can assume for Ed.

I wasn't thinking so much about the mutiny but about Ed's memory of watching Felix being eaten by a crab - unimaginably brutal - and the things he must've experienced as a boy on a pirate ship. Ah, my bad, as BB would say ☺️

Yes, absolutely agree. The fact he thinks Hornigold is going to poison him too. That’s his first reaction. I read someone’s take on Ed’s leathers being his second skin as a form of psychological but also physical protection. I wonder how many years he wore them. What his decision-making process was in acquiring them. How the BB legend evolved. There’s also something incredibly intimate in Stede’s wearing Ed’s second skin in 1.4, likely bleeding all over them, and then Ed putting them back on. I mean it’s gross, but also a sort of intimate…mingling.

I don’t think I could read a young Ed defending himself from predatory behaviour. I’m traumatised enough by canon.

Wet cat 🐱 Wet dog 🐶

Have finished my watch of Boy.

Gosh, that is a sad film (it would have been unbearable without the beautiful scenery, the cheerful music and the cartoons).

The children are fantastic though! And I enjoyed seeing Taika do so many ridiculous things (there are a lot of Waititis on the crew list - handy sometimes to have a big extended family).

I'd love to show it to DH but I feel like it'd take him straight back to his own childhood and probably leave him in bits. He was also told at 11 by a kindly primary teacher that he had potential. Being a very literal type, he went off and did exactly what they recommended...

I'd love to see that on a big screen. I'll have to lobby the local cinema club.

And the dead mum was 22.

Aaaaaa!

The bit that always gets me in 2.3 is how terrified Ed is when Hornigold is trying to feed him soup. All I can see is a scared little boy and it's heartbreaking to think of what he must have been through.

@Phineyj I hadn't registered that the mum in Boy was only 22. That film is another thing Taika made that is heartbreaking to watch. I seem to use that word a lot! But on a lighter note, I think this might be the first time "Pop Pop" gets to beat up Taika a little on screen!

I watched Boy. God TW really gets children doesn’t he, that’s a real gift.

I found it heartbreaking too, those beautiful boys and their immature, self-centered, ludicrous dad who was a boy really too and didn’t have any solid male role models himself. The repeating patterns across generations is so predictable and devastating. But perhaps there was a glimmer of Boy realizing he didn’t want to be like his Dad.

I thought the flashback of the death in childbirth of Boy and Rocky’s mum was handled beautifully. And the impact of maternal death on the whole family, esp for Rocky and the weight he was carrying.

I loved the style - the children’s illustrations were charming and the one of the house crying, gosh how utterly heartbreaking.

Apparently he wrote the first script for Moana, but it was rejected as it explored gender roles too much.

Well that would have been interesting! (Moana). Although I think they knew what they were doing there. DD (about 6 at the time) was absolutely captivated by it and I think watched the granny death scene about a hundred times. So it landed with its intended audience. And Lin-Manuel Miranda is very good. The lyrics are really clever. I like Shiny particularly. And I've only just realised it's Jemaine Clement!!!

Yes the children are v good in Boy. The poor 6 year old. That was awful. Was he meant to be the one who'd decorated the grave? I liked that. I also liked at the end where the dad and the two boys sit there in silence. It's hard to think any dialogue could have worked there, but it's a brave choice to let it be.

On a lighter note, the video from yesterday with dead pan Rhys and dead pan interviewer discussing pineapple fritters, pandas and NASA is the funniest thing I've seen. Definitely one to bookmark for one of those days when everything goes wrong.

Something else about Boy, especially having just watched the David Jenkins/Rhys/Taika interview that YouTube rolled into after the NZ sexy accent satire thing - accents.

I couldn't persuade the telly to put the subtitles on last night and I could have really done with them as I couldn't get 100% of the very strong, clipped Kiwi (especially as a lot of it was over background music). Noticeable how Taika's softened his accent as time as gone on (I guess directors particularly need to be comprehensible and being with Americans all the time must have an effect).

I think I will get DH to watch it. He has a concealed Teeside accent that comes out around other Teesiders and in situations where he thinks he might get a discount! Will make for an interesting discussion. And we can reminisce about our long ago pre DC trip to NZ. There's definitely don't there about people from the economic periphery going undercover but secretly recognising fellow travellers.

I hope I'm making sense.

@MrsJellybee I don’t think I could read a young Ed defending himself from predatory behaviour. I’m traumatised enough by canon.

I skipped those bits as it was sad enough already. I liked the idea of Stede and Ed meeting as lonely children and then meeting again later, not recognising each other at first: another version of the finding each other in every world thing. I liked the way that basic story was done in this fic, without the traumatic bits. I think it must've been recommended on reddit if not on here. It's this - it's quite short:

https://archiveofourown.org/series/3651958

One of the things I think is so good (but so sad) about Boy is that it doesn’t try to fix everything - there’s uncertainty about the future for Boy and Rocky. Even though Boy knows he wants a different life to his dad, what realistic opportunities will there be for him to reach his potential? Taika has talked about how in that community there were very few options – working in logging/forestry, or fishing/diving (I think). For him the difference seems to have been splitting his childhood between Waihau Bay and Wellington, and having parents who encouraged him in the arts, in particular a mum who was an English teacher and encouraged him to read. He’s talked about feeling that he didn’t really belong 100% in either world, but living half his life in Wellington and being at secondary school there must have given him far more opportunities than his peers in Waihau Bay. The children in Boy won’t have that, or a mum who is a strong role model. The scene at the grave – I hope the fact that they're there together suggests that at least Alamein is willing to accept some responsibility and be more present in the boys’ lives – the film is a coming of age story for him as well.

Another thing that really stood out was the way the children are left to fend for themselves and care for younger siblings/cousins at such a young age: Taika has said in interviews that that was realistic.

I like this interview.
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@TriceratopsRocks The bit that always gets me in 2.3 is how terrified Ed is when Hornigold is trying to feed him soup. All I can see is a scared little boy and it's heartbreaking to think of what he must have been through.

For me it's that the first thing Ed thinks about as something he likes about living is warmth - I think of him as a child with threadbare clothes and perhaps no shoes, desperately trying to stay warm sleeping on deck at night. Then food - he must have been hungry for years. Both things we mostly just take for granted, but for him he can't assume he'll always have them and so he actively values them.

For me it's that the first thing Ed thinks about as something he likes about living is warmth - I think of him as a child with threadbare clothes and perhaps no shoes, desperately trying to stay warm sleeping on deck at night. Then food - he must have been hungry for years. Both things we mostly just take for granted, but for him he can't assume he'll always have them and so he actively values them.

The way he strips Stede’s captain’s quarters not just of anything Stede, but anything of comfort. Broken windows, low lights, lying on a wooden floor crying. Okay, he’s on a rug, but still. It’s like he recreates his childhood home. He tells the French Captain he has more riches than he can shake a stick at. Yet he is delighted by fine clothes and marmalade, all which he can easily afford, but doesn’t have the self-esteem to purchase. The trauma runs deep with Ed.

That was a fab interview @lizziesaurusx, thank you.

OMG.

He was really drop-dead gorgeous at that age too!

Something else I liked about Boy (going to rewatch on laptop with the subtitles and maybe watch the epic Dukes of Hazzard fail a few extra times 😂) was that even though Alamein is a terrible, shitty father, he at some level (from the mum? the sister?) does know what a decent parent does and doesn't do, even if he can't do it consistently.

He doesn't actually give Boy a tattoo.
He lets him try the beer but backtracks when he checks his age.
He tries to give him advice about girls.
He tries to take his mum's quality time advice.
He apologises when he realises he's upset him.
In contrast with Dynasty's dad, he does a little better (the bar is on the floor, obviously).

Loved the detail of the three siblings named after the American soaps and the uncles named for WW2 battles.

The way he strips Stede’s captain’s quarters not just of anything Stede, but anything of comfort. ... Yet he is delighted by fine clothes and marmalade, all which he can easily afford, but doesn’t have the self-esteem to purchase.

I hadn’t thought of that but yes – and not just of comfort but also beauty – Stede’s beautiful cabin looks wrecked. Apart from the lighthouse picture, of course, that he can’t quite bring himself to destroy. He’s proving to himself that he doesn’t deserve comfort or beauty. With the fine things, although he has the money he doesn’t have the confidence to feel he can identify the correct signifiers of wealth and someone will spot that he’s done it wrong (eg the spoons). He’s afraid people will still think he’s the donkey no matter how he dresses himself up because he'll always make a mistake in the end. Poor Ed. So many layers to him. I wish we’d had more time for this to be unpicked in S3.

It’s interesting that in the end, he ditches the wealth for a broken down inn. Is it because he feels loved that he doesn’t need to crave the fine things any more? He no longer has to prove his status because he’s putting value in non-material things instead? Or would the two of them have been back to their cashmere and marmalade cravings after a couple of episodes?

@Phineyj I love the older interviews where he's serious and thoughtful - I love the funny ones with Rhys etc too, but for a though-provoking, personal film it's good to hear a considered perspective.

OMG. He was really drop-dead gorgeous at that age too!
At any age, really. I think he suits the salt and pepper hair too. I’m not keen on the more recent moustache-no beard look or the shaved head (which was probably to be Ed) but his eyes are incredible at every age.

Your points about Alamein trying to do the right thing are making me feel more positive about his place in the boys' lives. As you say, the bar is on the floor but those are signs of hope! He won’t be a proper dad, or a full time parent, which is probably just as well given his very shaky skills. It does feel though that firstly, he properly realises how much the boys have suffered and how much they crave a connection with their dad, and secondly, that he might actually have something to offer just by being a reliable presence in their lives. His self esteem is so low and he hasn’t himself recovered from losing the boys’ mum, so while he isn’t up to being a role model, he could be one of the adults in their lives, rather than someone who has completely abandoned them. He might even get a job; after all, he’s not a very successful gang member.

Gratuitous Boy-era photo:

Or would the two of them have been back to their cashmere and marmalade cravings after a couple of episodes?

Oh, almost certainly! I think there's a fic where that happens. A lot of shopping, inn reconstruction and decorating takes place. Possibly 'The Waters Around You'?

I couldn't convince Amazon that I actually have a Prime subscription on my laptop so instead of re-watching Boy I watched the film of What We Do in the Shadows (which expires on i-Player tonight). Mildly amusing. I liked Rhys in it, although he didn't have a lot of screen time. Not a patch on Buffy, obvs.

Alamein says he met the boys' mother at school, so the character's all of about 28 when the film takes place. There's almost certainly hope, given that 'Boy' has his head screwed on, a kind granny and at least one decent teacher.

It’s interesting that in the end, he ditches the wealth for a broken down inn. Is it because he feels loved that he doesn’t need to crave the fine things any more? He no longer has to prove his status because he’s putting value in non-material things instead? Or would the two of them have been back to their cashmere and marmalade cravings after a couple of episodes?

I think the Inn’s meant to symbolise their relationship. Good bones, but needs a shed load of professional attention.

Yeah, they both give up their wealth for love. Odd really. I mean poverty is a leveller. It’ll either work out or end up a resentment nest. At least we get to write our own ending and I’m going with perfect, blissful happiness. 😍

In a potential season 3, there is no way that Inn works out. I think Jenkins has hinted at it. He just needed to end it somewhere with happiness but potential for more. I’m still seething at the Warner Media / Discovery merger and its narrowed agenda.

Well, if Ed was one's mate I think given the events that took place in the previous week (?) or so never mind the previous months, it'd be anyone's guess what the outcome would be!

Made a nice resolution though I suppose, the ship sailing off into the sunset and as you say, perfect to write your own ending.

@Phineyj I’m of the opinion that so long as Stede is there, Ed will be okay. Not because Stede has fixed him, but because Stede has given him the ‘permission’ he has always sought to be himself. Stede is unashamedly Stede, doing masculinity ‘wrong’, and now Ed gets to do it wrong too, and it’s so right.

I'm going with blissful, perfect happiness too, @MrsJellybee . But not necessarily in the inn, which doesn't have a chance in hell of becoming a viable business with Mr Ed "I'm a people person and not suspicious of everyone, honestly" Teach doing front of house and Mr Stede "what on earth am I supposed to do with this hammer/iron/frying pan" Bonnet behind the scenes. They'd be better off the other way round but it's Ed that wants the inn. Although I suppose all he really wants is the keys so it doesn't matter who does what.

As you all say, the inn is just a happy place to leave them while they work on their issues. I do think they fully trust each other now and they believe in their love for each other, but they both still have to learn to communicate properly, which they've been spectacularly rubbish at for a lot of the show. Plus Ed has to learn to really believe that he isn't the monster he's thought himself to be all his life. And Stede has to learn that he is good enough as he is, that he's worthy of Ed's love without trying to change into something he's not. They both need to believe that they aren't 'ruining' each other. They've started down these roads but there's still a way to go.

I give the inn a couple of months. Then they'll be off. But they'll be off together. Whatever they end up doing I'm convinced they'll get there, and they're together forever.

PS I've been drinking wine. The above may be slightly more gibberish than I intended but I'm posting it anyway. Cheers! 🍷😁

@Phineyj A lot of shopping, inn reconstruction and decorating takes place. Possibly 'The Waters Around You'?

Is that the one with the ghostly Izzy? I started it then got sidetracked but will revisit - very up for a bit of bickering over interior design.

I liked WWDITS: sometimes it made me laugh out loud and I had to rewind to watch a bit again, but sometimes I was sitting thinking, I can't believe you filmed 150 hours and these are the best bits you could find. When it's funny though it's properly funny - I love the silliness. Also that Viago gets a happy ending.

I’m still seething at the Warner Media / Discovery merger and its narrowed agenda.

I'm definitely still seething and pining for what could have been. Perfect, blissful happiness for sure, but it would've been wonderful to see that develop.

Yeah, they both give up their wealth for love. Odd really.

It's odd as they really didn't need to give up all that pirate loot. Was that just because of guilt? There are other ways they could have used it to move on with some cash to spend on turning poison into positivity while also not being stuck with an inn that needs quite so much DIY and smells of dead animal.

But yes, as long as they're together, they'll be OK. I think they're past the 'should we, shouldn't we' stage and have reached the 'how do we make this work' stage. They haven't fixed each other, because they can only fix themselves, but with the commitment they've made to each other (oh how I would've loved a wedding!) they have a solid basis for that. They'll create their own wonderful, messy blend of masculinity in the process. It will be bumpy though and there will be plenty of whims in all directions along the way, which would've been a joy to watch.

Plus Ed has to learn to really believe that he isn't the monster he's thought himself to be all his life. And Stede has to learn that he is good enough as he is, that he's worthy of Ed's love without trying to change into something he's not.

I think Stede is closer to where he needs to be than Ed is - there's so much for Ed to unpick in terms of his actions in the past, and a lot of reparations to make before other people can see the real Ed in the way Stede does.

It's just so frustrating to not know anything about what was planned for the arc for S3!