Our Flag Means Death: Thread 2. Still utterly brilliant and we are still obsessed!

[TriceratopsRocks]

Ahoy there mateys! Hop aboard our ‘safe space ship’ thread 2, where we can continue to wax lyrical about our favourite show.

If you haven’t yet seen Our Flag Means Death, what are you waiting for? Do go watch it (on BBC iPlayer) and then come back here and join us.

You may have heard that this is a comedy about pirates and think that's not for you. But it’s actually about self-discovery, healing and found-family with a love story at its heart. It does begin as a sort of pirate workplace comedy, but in episode 4 the tone changes and that’s where the main story really starts. The joint leads are both damaged by abusive backgrounds and think they want what the other has. The show is about their healing and their respective journeys. It’s tender, romantic, funny, emotionally intelligent and utterly refreshing. It subverts genre expectations. There is comedy, absurdity and a good amount of heartbreak and despair - sometimes in the same scene! The acting is outstanding (Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby especially). But the writing, music, costumes, sets, the sheer attention to detail – for a show with only 18 half-hour episodes it is still keeping us talking, a full thread and many re-watches later. Can you tell how much I love it?

If you think this might appeal, do watch it, then come back and talk to us. It would be lovely if more were to join our crew. But be aware it's a show that needs time. The 2nd lead doesn’t arrive until the end of episode 3 and that’s when the main story starts. You need to give it at least 4 episodes. It then took me several more to fully appreciate what I was watching but then I was hooked - and had to immediately watch it all over again. If you like Good Omens, What We Do in the Shadows, Ghosts or even Bridgerton, this might be the show for you.

(I’ve kept this spoiler free, but if you scroll down you will no doubt find many, so beware!)

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/telly_addicts/5008593-our-flag-means-death-its-utterly-brilliant-and-i-am-obsessed?reply=135294204

<side eyes husband who is not Taika>

He is, but there’s that alleged affair which is really uncool. I fell in love with OFMD first, then Ed, then loved Boy so started googling Taika, and while I know it’s gossip and there are two sides to every story, an affair with a younger assistant feels so disappointingly predictable. Admiring real life Rhys doesn't involve those complications!

You mentioned yesterday he gets a lot of stick online - much of it seems to be from disgruntled Marvel fans and I can’t comment on that. But I think that sometimes when he comes across as having quite an ego it’s because what he says is taken at face value, whereas I think sometimes he’s being very deadpan and saying something that he clearly doesn’t expect to be taken seriously because it would be so arrogant. If that makes sense? He or Rhys (I can’t remember) talked in an interview about how that very dry, deadpan NZ humour sometimes doesn’t translate well into a US context which presumes earnestness and sincerity rather than sarcasm and irony – that’s not exactly how it was phrased but along those lines. I think he falls foul of that sometimes.

I hadn’t seen the Instagram valentine’s day post you mentioned yesterday but I just looked at the one Taika put up last year, with Rita jumping out at him, and it’s very sweet indeed.

This interview is good on what makes him so interesting.

https://www.wired.com/story/multifarious-multiplexity-taika-waititi/

My goodness, that is an interesting interview. It confirms some of my own observations about his character. It feels so changeable and inconstant.

When I see Taika in different roles, I can’t believe he’s the same person. In fact, the many ‘Eds’ are mind-boggling to me. How are BB, beardless Ed and Kraken Ed the same actor? And how are they Taika? It’s as if he morphs into different people. I know that’s ‘acting’, but I can usually see the actor behind the character. I can see and hear Rhys in Stede. And that’s certainly not denigrating Rhys’ acting skills. But Taika seems to disappear into his roles. He changes his face, stance, energy and voice significantly. The ‘Ed’ he becomes at the end of Impossible Birds where he forces his voice into the back of his throat so it has a nasal quality to show he’s fighting tears… It’s brilliant acting. I’m not sure it’s even acting. He just… changes. I can barely watch that ‘Ed’. He’s a chameleon. Multifarious complexity is spot on.

Wow - great interview.
The complexity and rapid changing of tone and character - like the rapid genre switches we see in OFMD, and generally his work. That feels rooted in his personality and which needs constant creative expression. His brain must be on fire. He reminds me of people with ADHD a bit.

I love his humour - it's very similar to mine (and my husband's, though he is in a lot of trouble for not being Taika right now). I do wonder whether US audiences get it. I had a boyfriend from NYC for a while and I found that he and his friends sometimes found me very funny and sometimes just took what I was saying literally and were either puzzled or borderline offended by it. I absolutely love his improv with Rhys Darby and Jemaine Clement because they get each other so well and it works brilliantly. I could watch it forever.

I also think that he gets a lot of stick from people who don't understand what he was trying to do with Ragnarok... and I do have some sympathy with people who say that Love and Thunder wasn't very good, because it wasn't. But I also think there's an element of that thing where you get into the public eye, people think you're great and then they kind of just turn on you. The affair thing isn't great but he's hardly alone in having had an affair. I think it's just his turn to have people being negative about him at the moment.

I will admit that part of me is a bit disappointed that he's with beautiful, generally popular Rita Ora instead of me circa 1997 some 90s goth nerd. I'm not sure I'm ready to accept that she might also be really funny and clever as well

I liked the Wired interview - thank you. Plus the clothes made me think of that chapter of Constellationism - bonus!

It didn't sound like the interviewer really 'got' Taika. Although the research was good. Typical teacher mum, rewriting essays, heh. And the story of how his mum and dad met . Amazing they lasted 5+ years really!

When I was late teens/early 20s I spent some extended time in Canada and the States and the lack of translatability of humour was a real surprise. Canadians, and Californians, in particular, found us Brits shockingly rude to each other, and generally quite rude/sweary (I had a sheltered upbringing and was definitely not particularly rude or sweary...by British standards). Aussies and Kiwis - no problem - no misunderstandings of that kind.

I noticed in the Hobbit podcast linked earlier (you know what I mean), the hosts said something about how Taika had said horror got him into film and he didn't even remember having said it...but gamely went with it anyway.

I can really relate to someone who works out what they think while they're talking about it. I'm rather like that myself. Drives my students mad. Sometimes me too. And I've definitely had that experience of talking passionately about something and the other person remembering it more than me...

Well, the WWDITS film contained Taika as a Mr Darcy / Vampire Hybrid and Rhys (not enough Rhys) as a Werewolf (not a swearwolf) Highly entertaining. 🙃

Some feels 💕

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LkOcgq7AA7Q

That's just beautiful. Thank you so much.

Aww

@CarterBeatsTheDevil @Phineyj Similar to you with the humour thing - at 19 I spent six months in the US with a friend from home and it took us a bit of time to learn to avoid saying things that would be taken literally and cause offence - people often thought we were being rude to each other when we were saying things that would've been completely routine back in Scotland - we really weren't! Sarcasm/irony as a mode of communication just didn't seem to translate and I wonder whether that's a big part of Taika backlash in the US, and that perhaps it's not such a thing in the UK because humour here is more like NZ humour?

@Phineyj I can really relate to someone who works out what they think while they're talking about it. I'm rather like that myself. Drives my students mad. Sometimes me too. And I've definitely had that experience of talking passionately about something and the other person remembering it more than me...

Or saying something with more certainly than you feel, so that you then have to justify it and can work out what you think in the process. Also talking very enthusiastically about something and then being surprised some time later that the person you talked to it about didn't realise it was just your shiny new favourite thing then, and the same doesn't necessarily apply now (I'm hoping very much to get to that stage with OFMD sometime as this is exhausting!).

That's so lovely MrsJ, thank you. As was the wired interview - and I also thought of Constellationism re the clothes! (sorry I forgot who said that). I think I have read it before, but last September or so when I was in my first flush of OFMD fandom and devouring everything I could find, so I'd had forgotten it completely (sadly my memory is like that these days, but I feel like a goldfish - it means I can get excited about 'new' things all over again 😁)

One of the projects Taika has had on the backburner for ages is a linked show called We're Wolves, focusing on the werewolf pack. I'm sure I saw something about him having started talking with Jermaine about it after the OFMD cancellation. But he's so busy I'm certainly not getting my hopes up. Did you spot Pop Pop too, @MrsJellybee ?

@TriceratopsRocks last September or so when I was in my first flush of OFMD fandom

Last September! Do you mean there's little hope of respite for those of us at an earlier stage in our obsession?

Well...

No.

Sorry 😂

(not sorry - you know you love it!). Actually I did wean myself off it for a couple of months while I waited for S2 to come out. I started watching Buffy with a vengeance in the hope of kicking my addiction for a while. It even worked a bit.

@BillStickersIsInnocent The complexity and rapid changing of tone and character ... that feels rooted in his personality and which needs constant creative expression. His brain must be on fire. He reminds me of people with ADHD a bit.

Me too - I think Taika has many possible ADHD traits (and Ed definitely does!). There’s the energy and intense enthusiasm/passion for a topic. He seems a bit hyperactive/restless both physically (always moving around in interviews – especially zoom ones) and mentally – his brain is buzzing, jumping around, but often with a train of thought that makes sense to him but not to someone trying to interview him on a podcast – he often gets distracted or goes on massive diversions. He talks about getting too bored to do too much research and he’s not good at hiding when he’s bored (zoom interviews – he’s sometimes whizzing around on his chair, making faces at the screen). He sometimes says things which I think come across as impulsive and not fully thought through - eg some of the things that we've been talking about in terms of his humour.

He also seems to be able to hyperfocus effectively, getting loads done in an intense, focused energy rush (based on how people describe his Thor sets – high energy, music etc), followed by the need for complete silence, sensory shutdown to regroup (as described in the Hobbit podcast). He says he procrastinates - it took him years to write Boy, Wilderpeople, JJR - and that he edits as half the speed of most people because he gets repeatedly distracted but wants the finished result to be perfect.

I’m sure there are more - this is pretty much off the top of my head. Their possible ADHD traits are part of what I love about both Taika and Ed, but I've thought about it much more in terms of Ed than Taika.

I think those are quite common traits among performers.

My daughter has ADHD. I watched her from backstage in a production of Les Miserables last year. She didn't have a big part so there was a lot of hanging around. But even after several hours of hanging around she could explode onto stage, instantly in character.

She's now moved on from a music theatre obsession to a football obsession and it's like the years of music theatre never happened.

My brain doesn't work like that. It was fascinating. And kind of annoying trying to keep up with the activity I paid for and supported now being something completely abandoned. I feel almost gaslit: "oh no I was never into that, what do you mean?"

It's only just occurred to me that that's why I've found Constellationism so compelling - it's actually being inside Ed's internal narrative (or that version of Ed). That fic also captures how that kind of creative person really needs other people in their life for the finisher completer aspect. The agent character for example, trying to keep him in mind of the schedule while surely knowing he's going to forget it all or remember at the last minute.

It must be very interesting, and probably a bit alarming at times, to work for, and with, Taika, for sure! The good thing about comedy and certainly improv is there's somewhere for all that anarchic energy to go.

And piracy is the ideal job in some ways for a person with low dopamine.

Surely the innkeeping wouldn't have lasted very long...

@TriceratopsRocks I thought it was Pop Pop. One of the Werewolves. I wasn't sure. He has very distinctive eyes. I was hoping to see Rhys' change into a werewolf in slow-motion close up, but I fear that might've been the end of me.

@lizziesaurusx Taika does sound as if he has ADHD. In the creative arts it can be a superpower. Orsen Wells probably had it too. I can't get over Taika running around film sets to the ending of Gallipoli!

Re: the US. I work freelance for a company in the US and I have to be so careful with the tone of any written communication. I naturally write with self-depreciation and irony, and I have to really tone it down. Sorry, Ned Low's phrase 'Blandbeard' just popped into my head 🤣. I have to Blandbeard my prose.

Surely the innkeeping wouldn't have lasted very long...

Yes exactly! You may love folding stuff now…

@BillStickersIsInnocent that sounds like the jumping off place for a very funny series of memes. "You may love folding stuff now...segue to things on fire..."

I have a drinks coaster I love with a drawing of a manically cheerful be-headscarfed 50s housewife. 'Drink coffee! Do stupid things more quickly!'

Lol at @mrsjellybee Blandbearding your prose.

I did some training once with the Sutton Trust to help UK teachers write effective references for US university applications.

You really have to hold your nose as you write things like: "This exceptional young person is the best I have ever taught at...". Otherwise they are disadvantaged. But how can these references help anyone if they all say everyone's wonderful and exceptional?

But then British self deprecation is no easier to do well nor to explain.

It's a minefield!

This exceptional young person is the best I have ever taught at...". Otherwise they are disadvantaged. But how can these references help anyone if they allsay everyone's wonderful and exceptional?

I fear I scuppered a British young man's chances of getting into MIT once. I gave him more than a fair reference, but he was in no way exceptional. He didn't get in. And I think that was for the best.

Back to Taika and / or Blackbeard being neurodiverse... that twirly arm-flappy thing he does with his sleeves after strutting on deck in Stede's blouse is one of my favourite things in the whole show.

I must watch it again! I will admit I found it a bit cringe the first time but I hadn't given much thought at that point to the fact that 'Blackbeard' is a form of dress up too. My favourite entrance is Wee John as Calypso. He just owns it.

@PhineyjBlackbeard' is a form of dress up too definitely a form of dress-up. It’s the Mad-Max costume. It’s armour. And when he becomes the Kraken and paints his beard back on, it’s pretty much drag-King. He’s trying to paint a form of masculinity back on that isn’t really him.

What I love about that scene in 1.4 is the freedom that Stede’s clothing offers Ed. Imagine being restricted in that leather prison for decades. He’s strutting and flapping everywhere! It’s a massive ‘coming out’ moment really. Plus Taika’s whole demeanour is hilarious.

I do find these time periods where male fashions catered to the more peacock side of things so fascinating.

I went round a stately home over the Bank Holiday and the aristocratic women's outfits don't change so much - more décolleté perhaps, less restrictive, more colours allowed - but the men! Mad swings from old Romantic Cavalier splendour to Puritan black and then the c20th ubiquitous business suit.

I can tell, frankly, from the choice of boxers (deliberately on show) and funky trainers among my teenage students that those peacock tendencies are very much still there.

Sad to feel you can't.