Our Flag Means Death. It's utterly brilliant and I am obsessed!

[TriceratopsRocks]

I'm sure I found a thread on this series a while ago, but now season 2 is out I've looked back and I can't find anything apart from the renewal petition.

For anyone who hasn't come across it yet, I would thoroughly recommend. It starts off as a sort of workplace comedy set on a pirate ship, sort of in the style of Ghosts, and with a similar fanbase to Good Omens. When the 2nd lead character arrives at the end of episode 3, it starts to change and it only hit me two thirds of the way through season 1 that I was actually watching a very different sort of show to the one I thought I had started watching.

From that point it's phenomenal. The attention to detail is superb. Both leads are clearly neuro diverse, from abusive backgrounds and damaged because of these. They both want what they think the other one has. It's about them discovering themselves, accepting themselves for who they really are, and healing. There is comedy, but also heartbreak and despair. The show handles these so sensitively and accurately, down to minute details, and Taika Waititi and Rhys Darby deserve every award under the sun for their work here.

I don't think I've ever obsessed about a show as much as this one. I've tried to make this not too spoilery in case some of you want to watch it, but really I just want someone to talk to about it! I've already watched it countless times and the more I rewatch the more I appreciate it. I said I was obsessed and I really am!

The show has sadly been cancelled, despite its popularity, and the producers are currently trying to see if it will be picked up by another network. I have read that they are keeping an eye on the iPlayer numbers as part of this, so I also wanted to shamelessly plug it here 😁

If any of you haven't seen it and fancy giving it a try, it grows into itself in the first season and you really need to give it at least 4 episodes (episode 4 is where the main story really starts). Its not a show I would have thought to watch myself (DD wanted me to watch it with her) but I'm so glad I have.

I don't really know what I want from this thread really. I want more people to find it, but I also want to just talk about it and obviously can't do that without more spoilers than I've already given. Help me out people!

I was just scrolling through the show's awards list on IMDB. Both Taika and Rhys were nominated for best 'comedy actor' and 'actor in a comedy' for this show. I mean. Comedy actor..? Taika? Episodes 1.10 to 2.03? Really? I just don't have the words. They deserved so much more credit than they received for those (stunning, heartbreaking, how do I describe them?) performances.

My teenaged son has just laughed* at my phone home screen (Stede and Ed discussing snake snacks) so I’ve come on here to check in with people who will very much understand!

So much to think about with all the fantastic character analysis of Ed. I think that’s what makes him such a compelling character – there are so many different ways to read him – the dissociation is made really clear, but sometimes it also seems as if he’s knowingly and very adeptly switching between being what each person needs him to be: suggesting to Stede that he teaches him to be a pirate I think is sincere, as is his longing to have an glimpse into Stede’s lifestyle, but within seconds he’s convincing Izzy that he’ll kill Stede – is he sincere about that too? Some of the acting is beautiful and painfully intense – the utter despair in that scene with Frenchie about the bird that can never land (is that the end of Impossible Birds), and in the blanket fort. I’ve only rewatched Ed’s scenes with Izzy in Red Flags and the end of that episode once as I find it too disturbing. But sometimes I wonder whether the depiction of Ed’s behaviour and in S2.1 and S2.2 needed to be depicted as so extreme? His grief and loss in S.10 was heartbreaking enough to watch without the suicidal ideation and the brutalisation of the crew. Or do others think that a necessary aspect of his arc/development?

*in a very loving way as he loves the show too, he’s just not sure it’s seemly for a 51-year-old to be obsessed enough with a TV show to make it her home screen. This is the shot in question: it makes me smile every time I see it.

I’ve been pondering today my favourite characters (Stede, Ed and Izzy aside).

Mary is brilliant - I love her give no fucks attitude to Stede leaving, her embracing a much better life without him and pursuing her own passions. Stede was an entitled arse when he returned but I like the way she responded with warmth and how that separation episode panned out.

It’s got me wondering about how Stede’s real wife felt - I mean he did leave her to dabble in piracy and then was widowed. I imagine she must have been utterly humiliated at the time. Or maybe she hated him and was glad the bastard left!

I also love the widow Evelyn.

Anyone else got a favourite character?

Actually ignore me I know nothing about this so just repeating Twitter crap.

That’s nuts! I read on Twitter today that the show has been entered for an Emmy…no idea if that is from a credible source though.

Anyone else got a favourite character?

I have mentioned Lucius before, but I also absolutely adore Frenchie. His response ‘They’re such dicks about spoons’ in 1.5 is the exact response you want from a mate when you feel you have embarrassed yourself (Stede’s response isn’t helpful here although he makes huge amends later with ‘fine things well’.). Frenchie’s calm and unassuming demeanour prevents Ed murdering him I think. How Ed doesn’t throw him overboard in 2.1 I’ll never know.

Oh, and he’s so hot in the English naval uniform during ‘The Road to Moscow’. 😊

But sometimes I wonder whether the depiction of Ed’s behaviour and in S2.1 and S2.2 needed to be depicted as so extreme? His grief and loss in S.10 was heartbreaking enough to watch without the suicidal ideation and the brutalisation of the crew. Or do others think that a necessary aspect of his arc/development?

I think he has to reach rock bottom in order to be ‘reborn’. He essentially dies and comes back to life. The Kate Bush song is about a difficult birth. The imagery I guess is womb-like, in water. Ed moves towards the light which is life and a rebirth. But he has to die, at least mentally and emotionally, to come back renewed.

Lucius: What if it’s not a death? What if life just begins again? 1.10

But I agree it’s a hard watch. I don’t like the fight between Jim and Archie, but it’s born from Ed’s jealousy of seeing them kissing. I don’t think we have to like all, or a lot of, Ed in order to love him still. And that’s part of the message of the show.

Really interesting thoughts!

I've been reading a fic recently where the author had gone into the real history a little and one thing included was the (actual) death of Stede and Mary's first son as a young child.

Puts a different perspective on the decision to run off to be a pirate, doesn't it? It's more common than not, for couples to split after a child death, isn't it?

I also found the early S2 episodes a hard watch. I'm bracing myself to view them again though because I'm sure there's a lot of detail I missed out (and watching from behind a cushion surely didn't help).

I've got a neurodiverse child who suffers (to me) extreme emotional states. I've heard it described as rejection sensitive dysphoria. Those episodes made me think about that - the reaction of "burn it to the ground" rather than be able to reflect on anything.

I don't know if I'm making sense.

I am also pondering how the best comedy is often wrapped up inextricably with the best tragedy and hence it's no wonder awards bodies have trouble classifying something complex like this.

P.S. thanks for the excellent continuity observations on the fish.

I love Olu. He is such a stable, loyal, tower of strength in the midst of the chaos.

He looks like he would be a good hugger

And Aunty. Cos the world always needs more bad ass middle aged women with no more fucks left to give.

Aunty is my favourite too. Love the look and gesture she gives the Revenge crew across the Republic of Pirates market place and also her gritted teeth when she says "good job" to Zheng at the end.

I also loved Olu and Frenchie's pyramid selling episode, especially Olu's ability to switch between London and (?) posh Yoruba accented English as required.

And when Frenchie, Pete and Lucius are making/selling "Gentleman Pirate " merch at the end.

@lizzlizziesaurusx how could he laugh! I've currently got this as my phone screen.

Favourite characters - I adore Mary. Forced into a lonely, loveless marriage to a husband who lived in his own world, abandoned, found a new life and happiness, husband returns (horror!), but they work together to fix things so they both get what they want. She could be the central character in a different telling of the same story. And Evelyn was brilliant.

As for crew, I can't possibly choose. I love Archie - she's hilarious and so much energy. Frenchie is a favourite in both seasons for his schemes and intelligence. Buttons is wonderful. Pete - such growth and hilarious one liners. Lucius was outstanding in both seasons, as was Jim. S1 Olu (I didn't enjoy S2 Olu as much). That's almost everyone, which makes me feel bad for the ones I've left out. But I love them too! There really isn't a weak cast member in the whole thing. Even the minor characters who only get a few minutes of screen time are superb. Oh, Hellcat Maggie - she's another favourite too 😂

But sometimes I wonder whether the depiction of Ed’s behaviour and in S2.1 and S2.2 needed to be depicted as so extreme? His grief and loss in S.10 was heartbreaking enough to watch without the suicidal ideation and the brutalisation of the crew. Or do others think that a necessary aspect of his arc/development?

I also think it was necessary. He's desperate. He believes himself unlovable, a monster. Stede leaving has confirmed all his worst thoughts about himself. He was more or less threatened to be Blackbeard or die, so now he's doing both. When he first came abord the Revenge he was already passively suicial "treading water, waiting to drown" "haven't died yet have I - maybe we should try that?". But Stede gave him hope. We grew to know and love Ed as a gentle, caring, intelligent, beautiful man, but now he's lost all that hope and it's devastating. As the audience we need to understand that being a pirate is killing him; the pirate needs to die, so he has a chance to just be Ed.

I've been reading a fic recently where the author had gone into the real history a little and one thing included was the (actual) death of Stede and Mary's first son as a young child.

I didn't know that @Phineyj. That's interesting, and it does make you think a little differently about his running away. I've deliberately avoided getting into their real histories too much, because I love the characters we've got and don't want anything I read to spoil what I think of them!

@TriceratopsRocks I love that Mary isn’t the bitter ex wife. That seemed to be where they were going originally (although that was largely Stede’s psychologically). It’s so refreshing not to have the ‘crazy ex’ trope. Okay, she tried to murder him, but then everyone in the show has thought about it at some point 🤣. I think she’s an amazing character who helps Stede figure out who he is and move forward. The Stede/Mary dynamic mirrors the Ed/Izzy dynamic running at the same time during the Stede/Ed split. One moves towards ‘health’ and the other…

Some people don’t like the idea that ‘Ed lives for Stede’, after his revival, but we are social creatures. We all live for those we love, and the show really brings home the need for community/crew. Plus Ed only initially lives for Stede. He has other facets of himself he wants to develop too. He is so passionate about being an innkeeper.

But Mary, wow. I would want her to visit the inn in the never-gonna-happen season three.

Oh yes, Mary and Ed definitely needed to meet. It would have been so good for Ed, and Mary would have loved him.

https://eddie-redcliffe.tumblr.com/post/731098282878795776/im-your-captain

Just a brightner GIF if you’re back to work today…

Mary's merry windowhood is a well established historical thing.

Many women, married off young to mwn they barely knew, let alone loved, widowhood could be a liberation. You had status in society having been married and most probably had children, widows were often accorded more rights than single or married women (widows could often take on and run their late husband's businesses) and more importantly they could embrace single life and please themselves.

Obviously this only applied where women were left with property and/or money and eidows of child bearing age would face family pressure to remarry. Many women would of course have been left destitute by the death/disappearance of their husband.

😁

I find the look of despair on Frenchie's face when Ed said they will just raid and cause hell for ever really affecting.

Also Ed's 'fuck you Stede Bonnet' followed by Stede's lovely 'good night Ed Teach' is just so sad.

I have thought quite a bit about how Ed felt on that jetty waiting for Stede to come to him.

For a while I wondered why he didn't go looking for Stede but then replayed the beach/kiss scene and feel I did understand.

Stede's reaction to Ed's revelation and kiss is really quite muted. He accepts the kiss but doesn't really return it (certainly not the way he does in 205). He says that Ed makes him happy but shows no real enthusiasm for the plan to run away together to China, just thinks about it for a while and then agrees to do it.

Ed couldn't have known that Chauncy would show up and so I think it was entirely plausible that he felt that Stede had just changed his mind. His own lack of self esteem would have made that likely, to me anyway.

Stede's reaction to Ed's revelation and kiss is really quite muted. He accepts the kiss but doesn't really return it (certainly not the way he does in 205). He says that Ed makes him happy but shows no real enthusiasm for the plan to run away together to China, just thinks about it for a while and then agrees to do it.

Absolutely. The thing is Ed’s character arc is way ahead of Stede’s. I mean, you could argue Ed has been ‘all in’ before even meeting Stede. Stalking him across the Caribbean the fighting the Spanish navy to save Stede’s life is pretty high-level commitment. And it just grows from there. Stede’s just a bloody clueless loveable Muppet. I saw a comment that he thinks Ed is his Moonlight Best Friend. Even Jack’s comments fail to register.

When Ed kisses him, he realises two things in the space of twenty seconds. He’s attracted to men, he’s in love with Ed. Now Ed wants to run away to China. When Stede says ‘It’s quite far away’… from what? He means his family and his old life. It’s all very well playing pirate on your toy boat in the waters of what’s essentially your old backyard. You can potentially always go home at some point. But running away to China? That’s real. With Ed? That’s real. It’s all too much. Stede goes from ‘Yes’ to ‘I think so’ to his little tight-lipped mouth nod which is so painful to watch… and Ed just can’t read the reluctance. If Stede had gone with Ed there and then, it would have failed. He needs to finish this part of his character arc. Unfortunately, by the time Stede reaches the same emotional space as Ed, Ed has Krakenitis.

For a while I wondered why he didn't go looking for Stede but then replayed the beach/kiss scene and feel I did understand.

He doesn’t go looking for Stede because the only reason Stede can possibly not have shown up is because Ed is unloveable. I mean it’s Stede ffs! It’s likely he is in trouble! Ed doesn’t really listen to Stede nor hear his distress on the bunk bed, or register his distress at the beach. Ed’s own emotions are so all-consuming that the world doesn’t have room for anyone else’s. That is a major character flaw of Ed’s. The line in Avalanche when he becomes the Kraken ‘Your pain has no credential here/It’s just the shadow of my wound’ sums up unhealthy Ed perfectly.

It's certainly true that poor Ed does rather lack self-awareness. His utter bemusement that the fisherfolk take exception to his patronising attitude towards them is very telling.

It's says a lot for Taika's portrayal of Ed that we, the viewers, are 'all in' for him (even, in my case, during his Kraken phase) but actually he's a fairly lazy arse.

Taika’s probably a genius. His portrayal of the multi-faceted Ed is… 💋 If this were a film, he’d have won a bloody Oscar. I actually think if we could bring Shakespeare back to life, he would be, in fact, be Taika.