Ancient Aliens

[Nonton]

Anyone seen Ancient Aliens on Netflix?

Half way through and not sure what to make of it tbh. Really entertaining and the theories are an interesting way of looking at things we take for granted. Is it credible though?

Any thoughts?

[quote Nonton]@livingwithbees I googled how much his net worth was! It’s about $30 million. He has sold about 63 million copies of his books.

Now just think how many actual scientists and professionals in the field make that much from their better researched and proven ideas?![/quote]
Fantasy and sensationalism will usually sell better than dry science though.
I do find it interesting that many of his theories are not based in science but originate from the bible - if he’d wanted to be taken seriously wouldn’t he have started with science?

@BajanB

livingwithbees. I love a good bad shark movie too 🦈. And I also enjoy paranormal shows which are equally funny so I will definitely be giving the aliens a shot.

Ahh paranormal shows and mediums…I used to work in a beautiful office building converted from a Victorian Manor House…a few of the new hires in an office on the ground floor got creeped out by old building noises, clubbed together and paid for a medium to come in who nodded knowingly and declared that Kings Cavalier from the revolution was pacing the corridors and hiding in what is now the kitchen. He didn’t much like being told that the building wasn’t old enough to have housed a kings cavalier…

I think what it boils down to is I like my fiction fictional and my science scientific.

Although I love a fictional cataclysmic dystopian book or film based on hard science. If they bugger up the science I can't stand it.

@TheLeadbetterLife

I blame George Lucas for this kind of stuff. You never get this, “but did aliens do it?” in any other academic discipline! Only archaeology, because of the likes of Indiana Jones.

Humans are really very clever, even the ones from the past. There’s no need to throw our hands up and go, “this is impossible, must have been aliens”.

In the area around the Great Pyramid, there are several earlier pyramids, some of which are quite shonky. There’s a clear trajectory of the development of the technology, over centuries. Why would aliens do that?

Is guess the two large pyramids were built first , then humans attempted to copy the design, and made the other ones,

@Nonton

Anyone seen Ancient Aliens on Netflix?

Half way through and not sure what to make of it tbh. Really entertaining and the theories are an interesting way of looking at things we take for granted. Is it credible though?

Any thoughts?

Graham Hancock has wrote some intriguing books about different aspects that's similar

@livingwithbees ”I do find it interesting that many of his theories are not based in science but originate from the bible - if he’d wanted to be taken seriously wouldn’t he have started with science?”

Your own beliefs (I assume) have underestimated the bible there. Bible is the bestselling book of all times. At Exeter Uni they taught the bible in the first year of an English Literature degree because the bible is a foundational text for most of the literary canon. It is a very interesting work of literature and a lot of our legal/social systems are said to be actually rooted in the bible.

Erich von Danikan was always going to have an audience based on the bible because so many people are familiar with the text and it’s stories. Bible texts was also his training; he’s not a trained scientist.

His ideas about how human civilisation came about thanks to help from aliens made more plausible sense than the archeological ones; it’s quite a transition for humans to go from living in the wild and to then developing a civilisation. Developing civilised society was no easy feat; for those in power it seems like it would be easier to manage an autocracy or dictatorship than working towards a democratic civilised society where citizens are allowed an opinion or voice.

I sort of see what he’s doing too. Instead of treating bible stories as allegory, he’s trying to make sense of what our ancestors witnessed to write what they did. Like I said, the bible is powerful literature and it’s still the basis of modern society.

@MrsTerryPratchett

I think what it boils down to is I like my fiction fictional and my science scientific.

Although I love a fictional cataclysmic dystopian book or film based on hard science. If they bugger up the science I can't stand it.

You like it binary?

Historically, there’s almost always a blurring of the lines between reality and myth. For a long time scholars thought places like Troy were all fictional settings…

The problem is that reality isn’t binary fiction or non-fiction. We compartmentalise like that because of our own worldview and the way our education systems are designed. There are more overlaps and grey areas than we would like…

Neil Gaiman: “Fiction is the lie that tells the truth”

[quote Nonton]**@livingwithbees* ”I do find it interesting that many of his theories are not based in science but originate from the bible - if he’d wanted to be taken seriously wouldn’t he have started with science?”*

Your own beliefs (I assume) have underestimated the bible there. Bible is the bestselling book of all times. At Exeter Uni they taught the bible in the first year of an English Literature degree because the bible is a foundational text for most of the literary canon. It is a very interesting work of literature and a lot of our legal/social systems are said to be actually rooted in the bible.

Erich von Danikan was always going to have an audience based on the bible because so many people are familiar with the text and it’s stories. Bible texts was also his training; he’s not a trained scientist.

His ideas about how human civilisation came about thanks to help from aliens made more plausible sense than the archeological ones; it’s quite a transition for humans to go from living in the wild and to then developing a civilisation. Developing civilised society was no easy feat; for those in power it seems like it would be easier to manage an autocracy or dictatorship than working towards a democratic civilised society where citizens are allowed an opinion or voice.

I sort of see what he’s doing too. Instead of treating bible stories as allegory, he’s trying to make sense of what our ancestors witnessed to write what they did. Like I said, the bible is powerful literature and it’s still the basis of modern society.[/quote]
You assume incorrectly. I am very aware of the bible and it’s standing within literary teachings. I don’t agree with your statement around our social and legal systems finding their root in the bible - religion is the root for these which isn’t the same thing.
It isn’t remotely a transition for humans living feral and then by next weekend sitting in the middle of a civilisation, there is a great deal of peer reviewed, well researched study into how civilisations rise and fall.
I’m also not on board with your statement around not treating bible stories as allegory. Interestingly, what is your opinion on dinosaurs and Atlantis

@livingwithbees

That’s interesting. I must admit, I’m not actually religious but I am interested as a curiosity. Maybe you can tell me more? Why should bible stories not be treated as allegory?

I’m open minded enough to be educated out my impression. It has been a while since I read any bible literature…

So, why don’t you agree that the bible is a root of many legal and social systems? If it’s religion, not the bible, then which text is the religion (in this an Abrahamic ones like Christianity) basing its legal and social systems on? Sure, different denominations of Christianity interpret the bible differently, but it seems like the bible is the base text from where they got their ideas for legal and social systems in the early days, no?

I’ll give a few examples:

• swearing of oaths on the bible (or another religious text). This has changed to reflect a more secular society, but it’s the root of the legal system.
• a census to help organise the social system and it’s resources. I remember once studying about how God ordered a census in the Old Testament, for example.
• in early times the Ten Commandments formed the basis of many legal and social systems. That’s the root it seems.
• even some of the most popular names used come from the bible or another religious text
• Britain still has a head of state that is the monarchy. Sure, they don’t have as much power as the monarchs in the bible, but the bible is pretty much where the concept originated (King David etc). See also the national anthem.

I didn’t think the transition from feral go civilised happened over a weekend . Admittedly, I’ve not read the peer reviewed literature on how civilisations rise and fall. Any recommendations?

@livingwithbees

Just re-read the posts. I should emphasise that I personally think of the bible as allegory.

However, I’m just saying that I can see that EvD is trying to read the bible in a non-allegorical way. He’s reading it to try and understand it as something that ancestors literally witnessed. He has a different approach because he’s not reading it as allegory.

Neil Gaiman: “Fiction is the lie that tells the truth”

I hate to speak for the illustrious Mr. Gaiman but what' he's talking about is how fiction shows the emotional truth n fictional settings. So a story about aliens would show how we deal with otherness (see DIstrict 9).

He didn't mean, "just make shit up, science is meaningless".

And there's an extremely well-documented path from hunter-gatherer to cities.

It seems like the aliens theory is about laziness. People can't be bothered to learn how things happened, they don't bother, then because they don't understand they insert aliens.

@MrsTerryPratchett

Neil Gaiman: “Fiction is the lie that tells the truth”

I hate to speak for the illustrious Mr. Gaiman but what' he's talking about is how fiction shows the emotional truth n fictional settings. So a story about aliens would show how we deal with otherness (see DIstrict 9).

He didn't mean, "just make shit up, science is meaningless".

And there's an extremely well-documented path from hunter-gatherer to cities.

It seems like the aliens theory is about laziness. People can't be bothered to learn how things happened, they don't bother, then because they don't understand they insert aliens.

I was quoting Gaiman in response to and in the context of your statement upthread that : “I think what it boils down to is I like my fiction fictional and my science scientific.”

My point is that the boundary is not always clear cut and binary.

I treat the alien theories as ideas. Passing judgement on their intellectual capabilities or laziness doesn’t seem to be my place… like, I’m no authority on the matter. It’s a TV show and I watch for entertainment.

There's the risk of very real harm though. People believing all sorts of nonsense and not caring about expert opinions is fine when it's aliens building the pyramids but not when it's epidemiology or world trade decisions (two recent 'we don't need experts' clusterfucks).

There is no more actual evidence for aliens doing it than mole people or magic or fairies. But there's a full series about it, with no counterpoint. It started on the HISTORY channel FFS.

You might see it is harmless fiction but it's presented as fact and that's dangerous. For people's critical thinking. Print media is now fiction as well so it's difficult to get easy to access science reporting.

@MrsTerryPratchett

There's the risk of very real harm though. People believing all sorts of nonsense and not caring about expert opinions is fine when it's aliens building the pyramids but not when it's epidemiology or world trade decisions (two recent 'we don't need experts' clusterfucks).

There is no more actual evidence for aliens doing it than mole people or magic or fairies. But there's a full series about it, with no counterpoint. It started on the HISTORY channel FFS.

You might see it is harmless fiction but it's presented as fact and that's dangerous. For people's critical thinking. Print media is now fiction as well so it's difficult to get easy to access science reporting.

I see your point. Maybe experts need to make their material more accessible to the general population?

When the Brexit process was on-going it seemed clear that people had lost trust in experts. Why? Where has that distrust come from? It’s too widespread to be ignored or dismissed…

Well we have been told not to trust experts by some politicans...so there's that.

@tangone

Well we have been told not to trust experts by some politicans...so there's that.

One of the issues is, it's unlikely they will announce e.g. By the way general public, we have a device called the Stargate etc.

@Hawkins001

And sometimes it’s in the general public’s own best interests not to know stuff like that. Just look at reaction to coronavirus: panic buying of… toilet roll.

Saying that, the public are aware they’re not told everything. Maybe that’s where the attraction to stuff like Ancient Aliens comes from? The public want to know what’s really going on behind closed doors and Ancient Aliens sounds more exciting than admin and office work! Lol

[quote Nonton]**@livingwithbees

That’s interesting. I must admit, I’m not actually religious but I am interested as a curiosity. Maybe you can tell me more? Why should bible stories not be treated as allegory?

I’m open minded enough to be educated out my impression. It has been a while since I read any bible literature…

So, why don’t you agree that the bible is a root of many legal and social systems? If it’s religion, not the bible, then which text is the religion (in this an Abrahamic ones like Christianity) basing its legal and social systems on? Sure, different denominations of Christianity interpret the bible differently, but it seems like the bible is the base text from where they got their ideas for legal and social systems in the early days, no?

I’ll give a few examples:

• swearing of oaths on the bible (or another religious text). This has changed to reflect a more secular society, but it’s the root of the legal system.
• a census to help organise the social system and it’s resources. I remember once studying about how God ordered a census in the Old Testament, for example.
• in early times the Ten Commandments formed the basis of many legal and social systems. That’s the root it seems.
• even some of the most popular names used come from the bible or another religious text
• Britain still has a head of state that is the monarchy. Sure, they don’t have as much power as the monarchs in the bible, but the bible is pretty much where the concept originated (King David etc). See also the national anthem.

I didn’t think the transition from feral go civilised happened over a weekend . Admittedly, I’ve not read the peer reviewed literature on how civilisations rise and fall. Any recommendations?

[/quote]
@livingwithbees I’m assuming from the silence to my post that you agree with my impression that the bible text is the root of our legal/social systems?

The bible (a text) being the root makes more sense than religion tbh. Think about how we work now. We have legal literature and then practitioners seek to interpret that literature; the root of the legal and social systems is not the practitioner but the text they are bound to work from.

[quote Nonton]@Hawkins001

And sometimes it’s in the general public’s own best interests not to know stuff like that. Just look at reaction to coronavirus: panic buying of… toilet roll.

Saying that, the public are aware they’re not told everything. Maybe that’s where the attraction to stuff like Ancient Aliens comes from? The public want to know what’s really going on behind closed doors and Ancient Aliens sounds more exciting than admin and office work! Lol [/quote]
I'll be honest and as much as it's a pickle to admit it, if we are already in agreements, friendships, with other beings, knowledge of various star systems, have access to very advanced technology from outaspace and developed in our own labs, ect as you say based on some of the public's reactions and perspectives, at the current time, I think it would be better for society as a whole, to be kept guessing rather than various people saying we have x tech or we are friends with x beings and they come from e.g. Sirius b star system etc.

@Nonton not at all, I’ve been fairly preoccupied with a few issues recently, namely, 36 weeks pregnant, moving house and childcare ending for my 3yo. I will respond in full over the weekend when I’m able to.

[quote livingwithbees]@Nonton not at all, I’ve been fairly preoccupied with a few issues recently, namely, 36 weeks pregnant, moving house and childcare ending for my 3yo. I will respond in full over the weekend when I’m able to.[/quote]
Sorry. Gosh that sounds stressful. Hope the move goes ok.

I was just interested in your take on the impression I had. No rush.

Take care

@livingwithbees

P.s. doing some of my own research to check the impression I got on the matter too!

‘The Influence of Biblical Texts Upon English Law’

‘The Fount of Everything Just and Right? The Ten Commandments as a Source of American Law’

Etc.