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Telly addicts

Ancient Aliens

122 replies

Nonton · 07/07/2021 18:27

Anyone seen Ancient Aliens on Netflix?

Half way through and not sure what to make of it tbh. Really entertaining and the theories are an interesting way of looking at things we take for granted. Is it credible though?

Any thoughts?

Ancient Aliens
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Nonton · 09/07/2021 10:36

@TheLeadbetterLife

I’ve always thought divinity was a strange idea that came to humans. What did our ancestors experience to hold such beliefs?

You answered this question yourself upthread - they’re gods of the gaps. Religion was a way for humans to explain and control what they couldn’t explain or control (like weather or earthquakes).

The problem with “alien experts” is that they’re creating the gaps as well as the gods. You don’t need space lasers to lift blocks.

Sure, but people still have faith. Religion still makes people tick.

God of the gaps is only one aspect of the divine. Like you said, it was used as a way to explain natural phenomena. But there is more to divinity than being god of the gaps.

The other aspect of divinity is that there seems to be something about the human nature that seeks something otherworldly. That’s a curiosity. Why?

Some religions are too tightly knit to unravel completely. The ancient aliens point to some of the sculptures and artwork of supposed divinities. It’s not one person’s artistic impression of divine beings but entire civilisation’s collective impression. Where did they get the idea and imagery?

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Packingsoapandwater · 09/07/2021 11:06

[quote Nonton]@MyCreateIsUsernamed have you watched the show?

They suggest lots of theories. One of the disturbing ones is about blood sacrifices coming from a worshipping of ancient alien ritual.

Others suggest the aliens built stuff for their own purposes, such as creating flight paths and alignment with the stars etc.

It is interesting.

@CheddarGorge yes I’m going to get into the debunking material next for some balance. Everything on this show is “ancient alien theorists say it was aliens”.

I’ve always thought divinity was a strange idea that came to humans. What did our ancestors experience to hold such beliefs? The show makes some interesting observations.[/quote]
When you look at divinity prior to the Abrahamics, it's fundamentally natural phenomenon that has been anthropomorphised, along with abstract human traits.

We don't entirely click with this in English because of the language differences though. When you read about Uranus and Gaia, you don't automatically think "Sky" and "Earth", for example.

It's clear that a lot of very old "divinity" is a way to explain concepts through allegory or metaphor.

All that said, to answer a point further up the thread, it was only after the Renaissance that most people generally stopped believing that the remnants of ancient Greek and Roman civilisation were not products of the paranormal/supernatural world.

Prior to that, it was extremely common for many ordinary medieval people in Western Europe to believe that Roman structures had been built by the fairies. Indeed, when you examine English fairy mythology, it quite clearly maps onto what we understand of the nature and achievements of the Roman occupation of Britain: fairy roads are old Roman roads, fairy palaces are old Roman villas with mosaic floors etc, fairy soldiers with their superior weapons and strange ways of fighting, even things like the multitude of hybrids that litter fairy culture (men with the heads of animals etc) - - they are half-remembered remnants of Roman pagan culture and mythology.

TheLeadbetterLife · 09/07/2021 11:08

How do you know it’s an entire civilisation’s collective impression?

A thousand years from now, should future archaeologists look at the contents of the Tate and assume the artwork in there represents the entire U.K. c. 2021?

Nonton · 09/07/2021 11:22

@TheLeadbetterLife

How do you know it’s an entire civilisation’s collective impression?

A thousand years from now, should future archaeologists look at the contents of the Tate and assume the artwork in there represents the entire U.K. c. 2021?

Maybe “entire” wasn’t the right word, but it’s certainly not just one person’s artistic impression.

Artwork in the Tate Modern or wherever represents artwork of our time, yes. Maybe not everyone’s cup of tea, but it’s what is on show for us now and many of us do go along to exhibits.

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mscynical · 09/07/2021 11:37

I am just obsessed with how many BROWN items of clothing Giorgio has Grin

livingwithbees · 09/07/2021 11:43

@mscynical

I am just obsessed with how many BROWN items of clothing Giorgio has Grin
@mscynical he googled ‘scholarly fashion’ and just ran with whatever he found didn’t he Grin
Nonton · 09/07/2021 11:47

@Packingsoapandwater
That is very interesting. I didn’t know that about pre-Abrahamic divinity. So much gets lost through the ages. We know so little!

Only thing is that I don’t think divinity only deals with natural phenomena. Divinity was said to be responsible for a lot of civilisation, order and law giving too. I suppose it kept people in line if they feared they were being watched by divinity.

Sometimes think our politicians could do with the fear of divinity to keep them on their toes! The voice of the Holy Ghost to whisper in Matt Hancock’s ear to say “God is watching you and all your mates.” Hehe Grin

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MrsTerryPratchett · 09/07/2021 14:55

The other aspect of divinity is that there seems to be something about the human nature that seeks something otherworldly. That’s a curiosity. Why?

Rather than divinity, humans are hard-wired for meaning. This is very boring evolutionary psychology. If I see a few stripes in the grass, I think "tiger". If I hear a bump in the night, I think "intruder". If I see a green tinge in the sky and smell tin I think "snow". It's extremely important to make meaning out of nothing to early humans. Because that saved lives. And if it saved lives, it would be selected for. after a few million years of selecting for humans that make meaning out of very little information, you get gods.

And as @Packingsoapandwater says that meaning early on was literally, 'the river has an animus' or 'the tree is good' type of beliefs. Then training and addiction type psychology kicks in. You think that tree is a spirit, you give it a present, your crops grow. Basic gambling behaviour says do it again. Then then you make all your friends and neighbours do it and a certain number of them will have some good luck. BINGO religion.

Unfortunately you get the neighbouring tribe who worship the big rock that fell from the sky in a shower of fire and then you have a war.

Then you get fixed agriculture and men hoard resources so they make gods that look like them.

It's really not rocket science (not even alien rocket science).

Nonton · 09/07/2021 16:20

@MrsTerryPratchett

The other aspect of divinity is that there seems to be something about the human nature that seeks something otherworldly. That’s a curiosity. Why?

Rather than divinity, humans are hard-wired for meaning. This is very boring evolutionary psychology. If I see a few stripes in the grass, I think "tiger". If I hear a bump in the night, I think "intruder". If I see a green tinge in the sky and smell tin I think "snow". It's extremely important to make meaning out of nothing to early humans. Because that saved lives. And if it saved lives, it would be selected for. after a few million years of selecting for humans that make meaning out of very little information, you get gods.

And as @Packingsoapandwater says that meaning early on was literally, 'the river has an animus' or 'the tree is good' type of beliefs. Then training and addiction type psychology kicks in. You think that tree is a spirit, you give it a present, your crops grow. Basic gambling behaviour says do it again. Then then you make all your friends and neighbours do it and a certain number of them will have some good luck. BINGO religion.

Unfortunately you get the neighbouring tribe who worship the big rock that fell from the sky in a shower of fire and then you have a war.

Then you get fixed agriculture and men hoard resources so they make gods that look like them.

It's really not rocket science (not even alien rocket science).

Makes some sense, yes. But it also seems oversimplified for explaining the massive subject of divinity.

In many of the basic evolutionary psychology examples given are within the context of what is already known. Stripes in the grass, you can only think ‘tiger’ because you’re already familiar with the concept of tigers. Would you think ‘tiger’ if you didn’t know about tigers? It seems that early humans made meaning based on the world they knew.

Divinity is almost by definition unknowable. Where is the evolutionary benefit in that? Sure, exploration is a good thing normally, but when it leads nowhere and humans are critical thinkers then it’s hard to understand why religions have survived?

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Nonton · 09/07/2021 16:21

Also, really fascinated to see what religious people think about Ancient Alien theories.

What would the Pope say?! Grin

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livingwithbees · 09/07/2021 17:24

@Nonton

Also, really fascinated to see what religious people think about Ancient Alien theories.

What would the Pope say?! Grin

I believe Laurence Doyle, scientist with SETI is religious, his might be an interesting perspective to google
Packingsoapandwater · 10/07/2021 11:42

@Nonton

Also, really fascinated to see what religious people think about Ancient Alien theories.

What would the Pope say?! Grin

Ah! I have an interesting anecdote about this.

I was once watching a programme about the Amish where one young Amish man was fascinated by the concept of aliens because he suspected they could be angels.

I found the historical meaning matrix of this to be utterly fascinating.

MrsTerryPratchett · 10/07/2021 20:43

Makes some sense, yes. But it also seems oversimplified for explaining the massive subject of divinity.

Well that's' the point. Occum's Razor again. The simplest explanation is usually correct.

Divinity is almost by definition unknowable. Where is the evolutionary benefit in that?

Divinity is a byproduct of an evolutionary advantage. There's no evolutionary disadvantage to belief so that aspect doesn't get selected out. There's a great evolutionary advantage to seeing a 'whole' from tiny parts. It's just that sometimes we add 2 and 2 and make 6.

Thewinterofdiscontent · 10/07/2021 22:24

Divinity is almost by definition unknowable. Where is the evolutionary benefit in that? Sure, exploration is a good thing normally, but when it leads nowhere and humans are critical thinkers then it’s hard to understand why religions have survived?

Maybe because humans are always raised by bigger, more knowledgeable people ie adult humans, within a construct of civilisation that has the most powerful at the top. We have just grown up with the idea that something bigger than us looks after us. Obviously it’s natural to feel that applies to something bigger than our species too.

ChatterMonkey · 10/07/2021 22:30

We watch ancient aliens!! Well sort of...

DP likes to fall asleep with the tv on, so we try to find programes that have a very relaxing sound in terms of narraator, music etc. Forensic files was a favourite for a while but that got take. Off netflix so had to find something else.

Ancient aliens fits the bill perfectly! Its interesting enough that as you're falling asleep, you can listen to it, but not so interesting that it keeps you awake 🤣 seen every episode about 100 times, but couldnt tell you any great detail about what they actually talk about haha.

MissConductUS · 10/07/2021 23:11

I think the show is fun and thought provoking, but ultimately is entertainment. If it exercises the mind and teaches people something about ancient civilizations that's a good thing.

Nonton · 10/07/2021 23:37

@MrsTerryPratchett

Makes some sense, yes. But it also seems oversimplified for explaining the massive subject of divinity.

Well that's' the point. Occum's Razor again. The simplest explanation is usually correct.

Divinity is almost by definition unknowable. Where is the evolutionary benefit in that?

Divinity is a byproduct of an evolutionary advantage. There's no evolutionary disadvantage to belief so that aspect doesn't get selected out. There's a great evolutionary advantage to seeing a 'whole' from tiny parts. It's just that sometimes we add 2 and 2 and make 6.

Going to play devil's advocate. Who decides what the simplest explanation is?

You say evolutionary psychology. Simple to you.

A religious person may say Divinity. Simple to them.

Ancient Astronaut Theorists say extraterrestrial beings. Simple to them.

The point is that the simplest explanation is subjective.

As for Divinity being unknowable, have you ever read anything by Karen Armstrong? I've not read the book yet, but the blurb sounded interesting: "Tracing the history of faith from the Palaeolithic Age to the present, Karen Armstrong shows that meaning of words such as 'belief', 'faith', and 'mystery' has been entirely altered, so that atheists and theists alike now think and speak about God - and, indeed, reason itself - in a way that our ancestors would have found astonishing."

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MrsTerryPratchett · 11/07/2021 04:04

The point is that the simplest explanation is subjective.

It's really not. For me to be right, I need brains (real), evolution (proven) and a very direct route to belief. For either of the others to be right you need a massive leap of unproven nonsense (sky fairy or alien visitors). Simple means shit you already know. Mine is. Theirs isn't.

Top tip, if you could replace anything in your theory interchangeably with 'magic' 'aliens' 'time travel' you're probably talking arse.

I mean you can explain anything with unicorns and magic glitter. But it's not true.

Nonton · 11/07/2021 09:56

@MrsTerryPratchett

The point is that the simplest explanation is subjective.

It's really not. For me to be right, I need brains (real), evolution (proven) and a very direct route to belief. For either of the others to be right you need a massive leap of unproven nonsense (sky fairy or alien visitors). Simple means shit you already know. Mine is. Theirs isn't.

Top tip, if you could replace anything in your theory interchangeably with 'magic' 'aliens' 'time travel' you're probably talking arse.

I mean you can explain anything with unicorns and magic glitter. But it's not true.

Well I was playing Devil’s advocate.

The other two (religious and alien astronaut theorists) have a simple explanation that not everything can be proven (that’s unhelpful to someone who wants proof, but in life people can’t have everything they want). Many things are (and sometimes need to be) hidden and that’s what they’re saying: there are mysteries.

I agree that your explanation is more grounded. Maybe that’s the thing: simple grounded explanations take the fun and mystery out of it all! Wink

Going back to the point of the show. It’s entertaining and interesting to see things from another perspective. Part of it is empathising with where they’re coming from and that’s not always easy when the ideas are different to the mainstream norm.

Based on what we had with coronavirus I honestly can’t see any government ever trusting the public with anything out-of-the-ordinary. Imagine if the public were told there was irrefutable proof of divinity or aliens? Everyone would probably go out panic buying toilet roll or something. Humans like the idea of out there ideas, but the reality of them would be too much to cope with.

It’s best we stick to grounded ideas like human evolutionary psychology. Stuff we can prove and that makes us feel safe. Smile

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TheLeadbetterLife · 11/07/2021 15:07

But they’re arguing with a straw man. Archaeologists do not consider the pyramids, macchu Picchu etc to be mysteries. Only the “alien expert” types seem to think they’re beyond the wits of ancient civilisations.

As I said earlier in the thread, the aliens are filing a gap the alienists have made themselves. There is no gap to fill. Humans did it.

Right now in the world you have subsistence farmers living side by side with particle physicists. Why is it so inconceivable that the ancient Egyptian population contained brilliant engineers?

TheDrsDocMartens · 11/07/2021 15:32

I love the idea that it was aliens. My brain is too logical to believe it though.
I would like to understand more about why humans were so clever and then ‘lost it’.

Nonton · 11/07/2021 15:52

@TheDrsDocMartens

I love the idea that it was aliens. My brain is too logical to believe it though. I would like to understand more about why humans were so clever and then ‘lost it’.
@TheLeadbetterLife as @TheDrsDocMartens said there seems to be a commonly held view that “humans were so clever and then ‘lost it’”. I guess what you’re saying by is that we never lost it?

I’ve just finished the series and it seems that the archaeological stuff is only one part of their argument. They’ve gone as far to suggest our DNA was purposefully altered by aliens and that’s used by them to explain why humans are so different (and more capable) than the common ancestors.

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TheLeadbetterLife · 11/07/2021 15:59

Yes, obviously we lose specific skills that we no longer need to use. It doesn’t mean they couldn’t be learned again if the circumstances were somehow identical to ancient Egypt in the future.

TheLeadbetterLife · 11/07/2021 16:01

Does the alien DNA alteration extend to all species which have not evolved to be as advanced as their common ancestors?

Also, is their argument that aliens altered human DNA, then tens or hundreds of thousands of years later came back and built the pyramids? Why didn’t they do both at the same time?

MrsTerryPratchett · 11/07/2021 16:24

I’ve just finished the series and it seems that the archaeological stuff is only one part of their argument. They’ve gone as far to suggest our DNA was purposefully altered by aliens and that’s used by them to explain why humans are so different (and more capable) than the common ancestors.

I'd argue that this is because they aren't clever enough to understand genetics. Same as they aren't clever enough to understand engineering or archeology. This seems to be the gap; "I don't understand [thing] therefore ALIENS"

Ive often said that in my field, housing, which isn't that complicated, when I retire I will get a cross stitch for my wall that says, "why don't you just..." because I hear it every day from people who don't understand that experts know more than them about it.

After Brexit and coronavirus though, I see that armchair trade experts and epidemiologists turn into armchair anythingists when the need takes them.

There's also the issue of human exceptionalism. We think we're incredibly capable compared to other animals. But are we? Many human 'inventions' existed in the animal world and we just observed it and replicated it. We're not as clever as we think!

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