Harlots - BBC2 - wednesdays

[stumbledin]

I am sure this has been shown elsewhere some time ago but I didn't watch.

But tuned in for lack of anything else.

Wasn't really convinced by any of it, and the background music was so loud it was more foreground.

Wonder if it started the trend for turning history into a pop video style story telling.

And similarly showing that somehow although women were being exploited by men somehow they were pulling the strings.

Her daughters had no respectable future as she was a Madame so how else would they survive other than as kept women or as high income prostitutes that’s why she got them into prostitution but delayed along as she could, she got them an education so they could stand up for themselves but that was the best she could do.
As for Emily, as was mentioned in the episode she chose to go and work elsewhere and leave that brothel family, so when everything was on the line including her daughters safety and future why would she sacrifice that for someone who left her care for the riches and glory of someone else?

I enjoyed it so much that I binge watched the first series on iPlayer. I can't wait for series 2.

Anyone remember Samantha Morton in Band of Gold?

I'm a bit in love with Charlotte.
Samantha's heaving bosom is distracting, I agree!

Didkdt - I do see that would be true on one level, but the other might have been that being so disgusted with the life she got trapped in she would use her money to get her daughters educated and try and escape into another world. (I am sure there is a well known novel about this, young woman grows up thinking she is an orphan but through education etc., finds a good life and thens has to keep hidden that her mother was a kept woman.)

Also, in this posting about 18th Century Prostitution the implication is that women would sometimes for economic reasons move into prostitution but then go on to another life. janeaustensworld.wordpress.com/tag/18th-century-prostitute/

Part of the plot line in the tv series is as much about setting up a rival brothel because of competing against Quigley. ie both the daughters and the other women are just assests for the mother to exploit for her objectives.

What 'other world' though?

It's not like today where she could encourage her daughters to get a job - there were no real jobs for women. it's not even quite at the industrial revolution so not even factory jobs. The only possibility would be something like seamstress or a servant and that would have been absolutely slaving away from morning until dusk for pennies. She even says to her younger daughter (paraphrased) would you rather be working the bones of your arse off for someone else or at least have a bit of your own independence.

Looking at the lifestyle Charlotte led as a rich man's mistress - she was living a richer lifestyle than 99% of women at the time. It's abhorrent to us with our modern sensibilities but honestly for a ten minute fumble every other night balanced against never having to wonder where her next meal was coming from, a sense of respect, living in a warm house, having her own independence...you can see why it would be the lesser of two evils.

As a pp had said because of their mother's background and their own (presumed) illegitimacy it's not even as if they could marry anyone even close to reasonably well off. They would have had very very limited choices.

@stumbledin there is a character who has moved on to respectability but look how she treats those left in prostitution
Both pimps/madams have money to slosh around to pay off debts of girls at a time when many women couldn't find the money to feed their children both had fed clothed and educated theirs. That would be better than marrying into poverty.
To paraphrase one of the clients he went to the whore house to remember the woman his wife was before she had birthed and buried so many babies.

I've just finished Series 2 and love the fucked up relationships!

Find those saying who wouldn't do it if the money is better very strange.

There would have been any number of ways for either or both daughters to have say passed themselves off as orphans in some other city, become a lady's maid, or even romantically set up a corner shop with a hard working young man (who no doubt would turn into a drunken wife beater).

The mother may genuinely have had no "choice" but she has gone out of her way to stop her daughter's having a choice and exploiting them for her own vanity.

Obviously in terms of the character she is meant to be, so driven that she will murder, it makes "sense". But just saying it makes her really unpleasant, and not in keeping with the other side of the character she is meant to have of being more caring of "her girls".

But I suppose it makes her equal to quigley who is happy to dupe young girls into becoming rape and murder victims of unscupulour men.

But pimping her own daughters shows it is in the end all about her.

Your view of the 18th c sounds a bit rose tinted @stumbledin

You couldn't just 'become a lady's maid' (particularly if you were "passing yourself off as an orphan in a different city", so would have no references or experience you could provide ffs) you would have to work your way up from hard gruelling tweenie at age 11 or 12, up at 5am doing back breaking work from dawn to dusk. eventually you might become a housemaid then if you were incredibly lucky a lady's maid. however jobs for that level of position would have been very scarce, would still have paid a pittance compared to what a high earning prostitute could bring in, would have been at someone else's beck and call, subject to their whims and expecting extreme deference (which Charlotte would hardly have been much good at) plus you would still be at risk of the master/son/other servant of the house sexually assaulting you anyway - look at moll flanders or tess of the d'urbervilles

Why do you think one in five women became prostitutes if there were all these other wonderful options open for them?

The mother honestly seems to think this was the best life for them. Whether it was/wasn't is debatable but I can see her reasoning when the other options are pretty limited. Plus it's clear she encouraged them into that lifestyle but she didn't 'make' them do anything -it would have always been open to either of them to say 'No sorry ma I'd rather go into service.'

Ooh. Where can I find series 2 @SaltyAndFresh?

@Ginfordinner Prime has series 1-3 for sale, but I've read recently series 2 will follow back to back on the BBC.

I dont have a rosy view of the Georgian era. I dont think tweenies would ever get to be a ladies maid, as best a parlour maid.

Ladies maids had a higher status than those working "below" stairs. ie would often eat in their own room rather than with the "domestics".

But as this is fiction, why would someone with knowledge of fashion and clothese reply to an ad for a ladies maid with some concocted story.

And as you point out 1 in 5 became prostitutes, and as in the link I posted earlier might only do this for brief periods. So that means 4 out of 5 did not.

And the mother did not give her daughters the choice. She put her desire to out do Quigley.

It’s not my favourite drama but I enjoyed it.

It is filthy, especially the earlier episodes. But as the series progressed the drama and storyline took over. I got invested and can't wait for series 2.

I liked it. It does show realistIcally how women could influence things but had no real power. It takes at least first season to start to identify with the characters. They did show them as complex. The diversity shown is also accurate as London had a thriving black community in Georgian times but also these free black British were in danger of racist slavers kidnapping them and trying to ship them to the colonies ti br sold into slavery.
I saw all 3 seasons on Hulu.

@stumbledin
It was very common for Georgian servant girls to be sexually available to the master so being a servant didn’t mean safety by any means. Just unlike Victorian times, the servant would not necessarily be dismissed once her pregnancy became apparent. The resultant children were often raised in the household to be future servants...pot/foot boy, scullery maid, messenger boy, stablehand, kitchen maid, etc.

Mrs Wells is a complex character. I dont want to write any spoilers so no specifics, but you see how the cycle of sex abuse can last for generations, each generation trying to do a bit better than the one before but not quite stopping it.

So, Mrs Wells honestly felt like she was a good mother, as she was better when compared to her own mother towards Charlotte and Lucy. But you see even she starts to realise she’s not that good of a mother during the series. The first clue is in how Charlottes virginity was sold much earlier/younger than Lucy’s was and how the dynamic of Charlotte viewing Lucy as the pampered “favourite” child of Margaret Wells evolves in the narrative.

Theres more to her story as well. I do also like Nancy’s character.

I dont know why everyone keeps thinking I am saying women weren't sexually abused in all levels of Georgian society!

I am just saying the mother, whatever had happened to her in the past, is denying her daughters any autonomy. They are just tools for her plan of revenge / rivalry.

And the 2 episodes shown last night in fact confirm that as the daughters told her directly what they felt about how she treated them.

As an exploiter.

The series is based on the book, The Ladies of Covent Garden. Mrs Wells is based on Elizabeth Ward who ran a brothel and after educating her daughter possibly at a boarding school, sold her virginity and looked for a keeper so that her daughter, Charlotte, could rise high in society has a courtesan. The author of the book writes
"Prostitution of this sort presented the only means by which a low-born, illegitimate daughter of a whore might raise herself from the chamber pot of society, as it was not entirely unknown for devoted keepers in time to become legal husbands." Indeed Nell Gwynn some decades before became the mistress of the King after being the kept mistress of 2 other lord. What did her mother do? Yup, she was a bawd

Charlotte Ward had a rival, Lucy Cooper (names are familiar perhaps?!) who's mother was also a bawd and again sold her virginity. Their other options would have been to become a bawd themselves or maybe if very lucky marry a tavern keeper and allow someone to pimp girls from the premises. Even knowing the risks you can see why the daughters of brothel keepers who have no good name to start with wouldn't want to live the life of drudgery that they saw around them. Love wouldn't have paid the bills or stopped your husband raping you or kept your babies from dying.

[quote colouringindoors]this press release says series 1 and 2 will be shown back to back, series 3 at a later date. So hopefully series 2 soon!

www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2020/bbc-two-announces-harlots[/quote]
Good to hear (read)

The book represents the plot twist of the author.

I am talking about how the character presented is contradictory, because on one level she is meant to be more caring and respectful of her "girls" but in her competition to beat quiggley she exploits her daughters.

The author is no more an expert on Georgian woman than anyone else.

And there is no historical evidence that the daughters of prostitutes were all prostituted by their mothers.

Why are you all so determined to try and make out that this woman is behaving rationally?

She is an exploiter.

She did not give her daughters a choice.

And having educated them could have found a route out for them as many other must have done.

And her eldest daughter had made clear how much she despised her for doing it.

I bought series 2 on Prime (I'm impatient).then binged S3 with a free trail of Starzplay, also on Prime.

I've really enjoyed it as a different take on a Georgian period drama.

I got to midway episode 4 last week, got distracted and haven't felt the need to watch anymore. I like Charlotte but Lucy is just annoying and I found the lesbian daughter storyline a bit contrived

I abandoned it after the second episode. It was like a cheap 18th century Peaky Blinders with women!

The only bit I liked was when the syphilitic and delirious Mary staggered into the room where Margaret Wells was sitting, shouting, “I want gin and laudanum and a roast chicken!”

I saw a couple of episodes and it seemed ridiculously unrealistic.