The Handmaid's Tale Season 2 (UK Pace) - thread 5 - SPOILER ALERT

[CruCru]

Hi all

Here is the next thread for those who are watching The Handmaid's Tale Season 2 on Channel 4. Please don't put any spoilers on this - the other thread (for those in other countries who are watching ahead of the UK) is:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/telly_addicts/3239228-Handmaids-Tale-Season-2-SPOILERS-VIEWING-AHEAD-OF-UK-SREENING

I think someone googled Eden and it said she’s was 15. I’m not googling to find out. Not until next week!

I very much doubt Gilead even bothered writing law for age of consent because sex isn’t supposed to exist outside of marriage or the ceremonies and those are all ordered by Gilead so what would anyone need to consent for? If Gilead Orders it you don’t have a choice.

Under patriarchy, all women are conditioned to submit to the desires of men anyway. Not as extreme as Gilead, but still. I’ve heard that teenagers now expect to have anal sex - there was a thread were a mumsnetters said her student age daughter kept encountering men who expected to choke her as part of sex. It’s not like women are truly free here either.

They are both victims of rape, surely? Both were at high risk of being murdered if they didn't - so both coerced.

If Nick was a commander it would be different, he would have a lot more power.

Ok I googled with one eye closed and the other partially open I think this is ok to post here as it doesn’t say anything that hasn’t been discussed on this thread, other than that her mother and sister are nameless! Don’t know why that surprised me.

Sorry “unnamed” mother and sister. Although it also just says “father” too without a name but doesn’t call him unnamed father. Is that deliberate or an accident?

Yes, they said Eden was 15 and Isaac 20.

Very good point about them being the only ones not compromise their principles. Perhaps a combination of blind belief (that God would forgive them because they were truly in love) and idealism led them to that.

I think they believed they were completely in love. We can all, with the benefit on age and hindsight, see that we probably weren’t in love with our first bf/gf when we were teens but at the time you truly believe you are because you’ve never experienced those emotions before. It shows their immaturity and further demonstrates that Gilead’s marry them off and get them popping out babies young philosophy is barbaric.

Haven't they done research into how teenagers feel and believe things more strongly than older people? Not just because they are not yet worn down by cynicism but also because bits of their brains fire up more strongly.

I'm sure that research has also been done about how teenagers feel love/lust more strongly too, because of all those hormones surging through their bodies.

Surely, all of that has something to do with Eden & Isaac's utter conviction that they were right and true in their love?

I don't really blame Eden for her choice. No it probably wasn't true love with Isaac, but neither is it with Nick and if she had repented she would have been forced to have a miserable sexual relationship with Nick forever.

She tried escaping, and it didn't work.

She believes in a Christian God and Heaven, she knew Bible verses that probably aren't commonly used in Gilead, and she probably believed that she and Isaac would be reunited in Heaven because they are good Christians.

From her point of view, death was not the worst outcome.

We may be shocked with Eden and Nick and the sexual angle, is it rape etc but hang on a minute ... child marriage is still legal in the US today, now. You can get married at 16 or 17 with parents permission, and at 14 or 15 with parents and a judge's permission. And it does happen routinely I read.

More than 200,000 in the last 15 years, three 10 year olds got married in 2001. I'm not sure anything has changed, it's still legal in most states

At Eden’s age I genuinely believed I loved Taylor Hanson. I was also pretty certain that when (not if) he met me he would love me too. I had our future mapped out entirely. (We met and went on tour forever. The end)

Sister. I felt the same way about Jason Donovan.

Me too Witch about JD. I would watch his music videos every morning before school & felt genuine emotions about him

I think Eden, assuming she’s not the only one, is more of a threat to Gilead than anyone. She is a true believer - but in a loving, forgiving Christian God, not in Gilead. She chose death as dying honestly (in her view) would save her soul. Lying to save her life would damn her soul. I wonder if there may be repercussions for her family - she’s learned NT Christianity from somewhere - everything we’ve seen from The Establishment has been OT.

Yes, I think that's a good point Evil. I think it came up on a previous thread, June still praying etc. But she's not praying to the Gilead God, she's praying to the loving NT one she knew...

One of June's monologues was about econo people knowing to go to the right kind of church tactically in the early days, too.

I just had another thought about why Serena might have been so upset about the execution.

Maybe seeing how Eden & Isaac looked at each other reminded her of what she once had with Fred & how much she's lost?

Maybe on some level she envied them.

I think SJ let June feed the baby as, having watched the execution, she wanted to give the crying baby some comfort. I won't hold out much hope that this is a turning point for her though. She reverted to type after working with June on the policies.

I watched it again last night to try to pick up on some of the detail I'd missed.

At the start, in the room where Fred gets Nick to hang the painting, there's conversation about him having room to spread out. So has he had a promotion now that 'his' baby is born?

I also thought the cartoon was Maus, though I hadn't seen the other comments on the thread at that point. Which got me making Holocaust associations. I'm afraid I'm leaning toward C Lawrence being a modern-day Mengele not a modern-day Schindler, though I hope I'm wrong. But the creepy interest he was taking in Emily's medical and psychological history... he could have talked to her in a much more sympathetic way if he genuinely had her best interests at heart. He seemed to want to play with her and terrify her. I suppose he could be a modern-day Schindler - the original was, after all, a flawed and complex person. But somehow he seemed to be taking too much pleasure in Emily's discomfort to be well-intended, and his wife clearly thinks he's a monster - so I think he's making the most of the opportunity to study the physical and psychological effects of life in the Colonies at first-hand.

Small and irrelevant point - why didn't those heavy weights crack the bottom of the swimming pool, especially when hurled downwards from the diving board?

They were kettle bells - another chilling use for an everyday item. The water would break the fall though.

Yes re the room to spread out. I think having a baby gives you higher status.

Yes, Nazi scientists used to be 'nice' to their victims, bribe them with treats and treat them well - until the experiments. I'm still inclined to think Lawrence might be helpful, but there is the doubt he is indifferent to Gilead and is using the time and power he has for his own experiments - hence the need for privacy.

Nick raped Eden. She is under 16. He is a rapist, just like the Commanders.

I think this is a silly thing to say. He is not like the commanders.

badteacher

Could we say the same about religious family’s? Their girls are raised to want to get married and conceive a child. I view Eden's upbringing as quite similar.

RE Nick raping Eden. He didn't want to have sex with her, as she was under the US age of consent.

Eden approached June and confided she was concerned he was a Gender Traitor.

June told him to have sex with her or he'd end up on the wall

Nick also had sex under duress in that scenario

Both Nick and Eden were victims of the horrendous regime, neither had a choice.