A very English scandal

[Cistersaredoingitforthemselves]

Looking forward to seeing this

I have read the book and it was excellent.

I remember this happening and it being one of the earliest political scandals I was aware of ( and actually understood) - Watergate was my first but I was only small and didn't understand

Peter Bessell - the owner of a face like a badly tessellated pavement

Probably the best caption of a photo ever

The dog shooter had served time for it, I think it was only discharging a gun in the end. JTs trial was after his release entirely.

That was one thing that was confusing, the time line. The 70s fairly zipped along. When you consider that NS was only 19 when they met, he must have been in his thirties by the trial.

Wishaw was terrific, there are not many actors who could say 'national insurance is my life's blood' convincingly.

I thought both Ben Wishaw and Hugh Grant were fantastic. I'm old enough to remember the events and the people. Hugh Grant was, frankly , astonishingly good as Jeremy Thorpe. The mannerisms... everything. He went up so far in my estimation as an actor.
BW is brilliant although I have seen him do "vulnerable gay man" before.

I’m watching the panorama programme now. Ben had Norman's Voice spot on.

I’m sure that’s true the80 ( re the establishment).
I also feel NS probably was complicated, difficult and maybe suffers from mental health issues, and has been very sympathetically portrayed. However it seems he’s been talking to the papers saying the production was unfair on him. Nothing of course excuses THorpe, and the establishment’s treatment of NS.
Agree re the acting. I think HG was always a good actor ( and he’s a very intelligent guy), he just got typecast a lot as a love interest, maybe now he’s older he’ll be offered more substantial parts.

" I felt it was too sympathetic to NS"

I did wonder that.

JT had given him money, organised jobs hadn't he & NS just kept wanting more & more help?

He was in effect blackmailing him, wasn't he?

Would a lost NI card be so difficult to replace?

It was made clear that NS was a thorn in his side all along I thought. He did blackmail Thorpe and tell his first wife about their affair. Neither character was ‘whiter than white ‘but to try to have him killed was another matter entirely! If the gun hadn’t jammed it would have been different of course. Then he may have had to pay off the hitman over time!

Someone mentioned upthread diddl that the NI card was a bit of an obsession and maybe represented his disturbed state of mind. Someone also pointed out that the name change from Josiffe to Scott would have been problematic but of course could have been resolved plouging through the right bureaucratic channels but he would have found that too daunting.

Yes, I do think he was blackmailing - not for financial gain but, in some ways worse, for vindicitive reasons, trying to hurt JT professionally and personally knowing that JT couldn't go to the Police about it due to risk of prison and ruin

The NI card was a red herring. Tricky but not impossible to find out your number back then. I weirdly know mine by heart. I got it in the early 80s.

I just don't think the balance was there 80's - JT was portrayed so well, highlighting his ambition and ruthlessness but also his charm and softer side.

NS was basically portrayed as someone unworldly and naive who was taken advantage of - no real balance as to his darker side.

All the cast were excellent, including the co - conspirators who played small parts well! I love the disgusted look when that man realised Jeremy had been given velvet cushions to sit on in the dock!

I agree that Norman was seen as the innocent party at times - but the fact remains that Thorpe wanted him dead and the subsequent cover up was typical of governments nearly getting away with it!
The judge helping him at the end was all in his favour - Scott was seen as something you would find on your shoe - an inconvenience to them all.

It's probably hard to imagine now what it was like for JT and NS. I was very conscious of watching the programme through the lens of 21st century values and norms around sexuality.

I remember reading about JT arriving in NS's bedroom with a towel and vaseline and trying to work out if that meant what I thought it meant! The piece suggested that JT had coerced NS into it, and it all sounded grubby and awful. I imagine for lots of men it was pretty awful. Hole-in-the-corner encounters in parks and toilets and bedsits, followed by shame and fear.

Agree clionba it was a great production with excellent acting. Lots of hilarious moments to leaven the story. The sheer incompetence of the hired killer and the proceedings in the working men’s club in Blackpool were grand guignolesque. I also like the high production values, the attention to detail and the recreation of the 1960s and 1970s. Some of the jokes were naughty and knowing , but funny all the same “ got to leave way for new blood, Cyril Smith and clement Freud, exciting times indeed” said JT.

On that note, what is it with the liberals and sexual scandal. I suppose they don’t have theUSP on it, but for a small party it looks very unfortunate . David Steel does not come off well. He probably knew a lot more than he is happy to admit to these days.

Profumo was a Tory - that was a pretty big scandal at the time.
Politicians and scandal do seem to go together.

Classical liberalism is likely to attract people who feel oppressed by a current law i think. Liberals can be much nearer to libertarians than classical Conservatives who might focus on law and order and social stability. That can mean beneficial reform, or it can also provide a niche for those whose lawbreaking is much darker like Cyril Smith.

Now it's a bit longer since seeing it, I wish there had been a bit more about JT's actual politics - from this you wouldn't see why anyone would employ him on a till, but there was more to him than this. They did have a couple of fragments - more would have been better.

I also thought NT's mental instability came through in the first two episodes and I thought the NI card was a preoccupation that would just have shifted to something else if fulfilled.

I think most people agree that Thorpe wasn’t a bad MP to be fair. The liberals were a force to be reckoned with at one stage. Much bigger than they are now especially in the West Country.

I also liked the contrast between the reaction of the first wife and the second.

Caroline was all we must never speak of this again, and had screaming nightmares. It was heavily implied the nightmares caused her to fall asleep at the wheel and was another reason for JTs hatred of NS at that time.

Then in contrast, Marion received the same news (that her husband had had a male lover) with total equiminity and compassion.

His second wife was very understanding of it all. Much better than I would be I think!

Caroline was all we must never speak of this again, and had screaming nightmares. It was heavily implied the nightmares caused her to fall asleep at the wheel and was another reason for JTs hatred of NS at that time

The phone call portrayed never happened though, did it? Caroline knew some time before that?

Can’t remember where I read that though. Might have been from something about Peter Bessell. I’ll have a look.

(We have to remember that what we watched was a dramatisation & not intended to be taken as 100% truth)

Times piece inc Bessell’s comment

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bbc-s-a-very-english-scandal-is-wrong-on-wife-s-death-says-jeremy-thorpe-s-lover-norman-scott-pvs76f6z0

I also read that the phone call was fiction and Caroline was aware of the relationship before she married JT.

According to media last week Norman Scott was very unhappy with the inference that his 'phone call' might have led to Caroline's suicide

Meant to include this screenshot, sorry (I keep hitting ‘remove images’ instead of ‘post’ )

'I thought both Ben Wishaw and Hugh Grant were fantastic.'

Totally agree. I thought that Hugh Grant's finest moment in a totally brilliant performance was when he was charged in the police station and then came out of the interview room and bumped into the goons. He looked shocked, stunned, and terrified but the scene was still extremely funny, without turning into a cartoon or a farce.

I can't wait to watch the whole thing all over again!