Howard's end

[Braceface]

Anyone watching?

I did much prefer Julia Ormond to Vanessa Redgrave as Mrs Wilcox. A much subtler performance.

The casting of Tracey Ullman in Prunella Scales' part was unkind, though. She couldn't possibly live up to it.

There was another merchant ivory one with a lot of naked men jumping into a pool.............which one was that

That's RWaV too isn't it?

The casting of Tracey Ullman in Prunella Scales' part was unkind, though. She couldn't possibly live up to it. Totally wooden. In the scenes where she was bustling round in a long skirt, she looked like she was struggling with an oversized costume on a modern street.

That's RWaV too isn't it? No idea. I think a vicar was involved. I am going to have to watch that film again to disentangle it from Howard's End

Necessary research

yes rwav = naked guys

its my favourite :)

Absolutely.

I think we have Passage to India somewhere too, from when DD was doing India in history.

Wasn't Simon Callow one of the naked men?

He is the Rev, along with Rupert Graves and Julian Sands. Just looked it up - they are so young!

There was Maurice, too - another MI/EMForster. That's Christmas sorted

I think the black maid was feasible and Jackie possibly but unlikely however not the ethnic minority ladies as upper class at the tea at the Schlegel’s was daft and seemed like box ticking as someone said up thread

Right, I've watched it now.

God, the interiors were exquisite.

I liked it a lot. Hayley Atwell makes an excellent Margaret and Thibby was suitably wet and loathsome.

I have to say that I didn't find the diverse casting as problematic as others. The Schlegels are precisely the kind of people who might have rather self-consciously sought out non-white friends and appointed a black maid or an Indian doctor, for example. It was the height of the Raj and wealthy Indians did travel to England to study and work - one estimate suggests that there were 70,000 south Asians in England by the turn of the 20th century.

I think the Schlegel's diverse circle helps to emphasise the cultural differences between them and the Wilcoxes, despite the fact that both families are upper-middle class. The Schlegels are liberal bohemians, whereas the Wilcoxes are very much of the 'new money' mercantile class and have rather more status anxiety as a result.

Yes I really like it too. I also likedTracey Ullman. She's nearly 60 and was playing a kindly aunt,not sure how she did that so wrong,thought she did a good job.

Finding it interesting re the horror that there were multi cultural characters included in the production. They would have been in existence so why the peal clutching?

www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/black_britons_
01.shtml

I'm suspecting some viewers on this thread have become accustomed to lavish Jane Austin costume dramas (can get a little tedious after a while) and aren't keen on a more contemporary approach on a Sunday evening.Seems to have had good reviews elsewhere.

Looking forward to next week.

www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/black_britons_01.shtml

But this is EM Forster’s world, his creation. He was (partly) writing about the period he lived in, the class system, social mores etc. He didn’t bother writing about black and Asian people so it’s redundant and distracting to have them in this adaptation when he made his points perfectly well in his book.

I thought it was good and true to the story.
Nothing really happened and the characters spend all their time getting het up over nothing.....because nothing much happens in their lives, so every little thing is endlessly discussed and weighed.

I find the Schlegels self indulgent and irritating - smug liberals who spend their time feeling marvellous for their liberal values and ideas compared to everyone else's lack of them.....but in reality, as restrained and confined by the values of the time as everyone else. I'm pretty sure this is how we are meant to feel towards them.

Loved the scene at the concert and the way they were all desperately into the music with their bobbing heads, face pulling and conducting - one of the girls looked on the point if orgasm over it all - fantastic - and there was buttoned up Umbrella Man trying hard to behave appropriately and sitting upright and proper, whilst being fascinated about how the real middle classes behaved. Great contrast after the concert of umbrella Man in his smart black suit walking properly along the street (hiding his frayed cuffs) whilst awful Tibby in his ridiculous bohemian scarf and outfit, meanders along the street,mseemingly oblivious to what anyone thinks. But of course Umbrlla man knows he has frayed cuffs and the others do too.

Hideous characters....but it was well done. And Howards End was beautiful,as was the scene where they get into the car. I will have to continue.

What is Forster's world?

Pretty sure he didn't give an indepth physical description of every single character in his novels so don't get how it distracts.

It would invite comment, though, wouldn’t it? All those multi cultural characters in Edwardian London. But Forster doesn’t remark on this, which is why I’m fairly sure none of his characters he dreamt up were non-white.

My DH commented on the number of non-white faces last night. We discussed if it was accurate or not.

I think that the BBC has a duty to be accurate when showing history. When televising books they also have a duty to be accurate to the book. Sometimes it matters and alters the story when people of different ethnicity are used to portray the characters and sometimes it doesn't.

I agree that Forster didn't intend Jackie to be non-White. In terms of the actual story line, the fact the BBC have chosen her to be non-White shouldn't make much difference, but it clearly is distracting people. The story is about class and that does come across, but for some people it may now seem to be about race too - so that will be a red herring and the BBC need to be mindful of that and not allow its multi-cultural aims to distort the actual story. Yes, it's fiction and not representing real events or people, but as a story about values it is easy to lose that.

As ever, art about historical periods tells us more about the people making the art and their values than those of the period being depicted. I do wonder if in 20 years when the next adaptation of this is made and people look back on this one, they will laugh at the BBCs attempts to insert non-White actors into roles which so clearly were not intended to be non-White in the book.......or by then will there be an all non-White cast, or will the Wilcos and Sclegel families also have become non-White?

On reflection thinking about Passage to India and his own multi cultural close friends and values Forster probably would be very enthusiastic about this. It's sad that in his time he probably couldn't have envisaged an England or a cast of performers like this.

"I have to say that I didn't find the diverse casting as problematic as others. The Schlegels are precisely the kind of people who might have rather self-consciously sought out non-white friends and appointed a black maid or an Indian doctor, for example. It was the height of the Raj and wealthy Indians did travel to England to study and work - one estimate suggests that there were 70,000 south Asians in England by the turn of the 20th century. "

That is the whole point. It would have been far more likely to be an Asian maid than a black African/Afro-American.

Treating these as interchangeable says a lot about our perception of race. It suggests that we think of them as Generalised Other rather than Person with Specific Background. Reminds me of when an acquaintance of dd was asked to play the part of an Indian native in an am-dram performance of Around the World in 80 Days "because we need somebody ethnic". He was Nigerian! Dd herself was approached about the part of Aouda. Dd's only claim to "ethnicity" is that she is half Swedish.

But above all, even if the Schlegels had been able to get hold of that many people of African descent, their action would have been self-conscious. They would have been very obvious about it, people who first came to the house would have stared at the maid, questions would have been asked. Here it is treated like the most natural thing in the world. That's not how the Schlegels operate.

Why?

He was part of the Bloomsbury group so pretty liberal minded and gay. He touched in race in A Passage to India and had non white characters.

Most of the black Edwardian England population were located in London so not beyond the realms of possibility for Londoners to not pass comment.

On

I categorically did not treat Africans and Asians as interchangeable in my post above. Please don't misrepresent me.

I was making the point that there would have been a fair number of intellectual and professional south Asians in London at that time, moving in the sorts of circles that the Schlegels would have placed themselves in.