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The State

233 replies

Oldowl · 20/08/2017 21:15

Anyone watching?

OP posts:
Rhubarbginisnotasin · 25/08/2017 04:48

Two other things that were wrong - Shakira was wearing her outdoor shoes when she went to the squatting loo.

And the use of convert to describe the westerners when the correct term to have used was revert.

LukeCagesWife · 25/08/2017 06:59

imperial I was agreeing with you the training.

Apparently the characters are a mix of stories, we identified 3 that she seemed to be I think.

IIRC 400 odd have returned from Isis.

Also it was pointed out that Issac (amazing acting) probably would have taken a little more convincing.

It was also pointed out that the second man featured, Jalal's friend, seemed to fully absorb and it would have been interesting to see more of how he fully lost his humanity.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 25/08/2017 09:12

Some young mothers do have magical childcare fairies, aka family. A schoolfriend of mine had a baby at 16 and moved in with her youngish granny who helped out. I didn't find that hard to believe.

Italiangreyhound · 25/08/2017 09:52

The doc was totally annoying and I wasn't convinced. She did not seem especially religious. Did not agree to the religion (that version of it) view of women or gay men. She seemed thoroughly western in most of her thinking.

But she was clever in the way she persuaded Issac. She said you decide either we go or we stay (or words to that affect). I think if he was so brainwashed he was a fighter and she a mere woman he would not take an order from her, even at 9. But she gave him the choice and that was clever (or deadly dangerous, however you look at it!)

Italiangreyhound · 25/08/2017 09:55

ImperialBlether "She was a cold, hard woman and a terrible mother, I thought. (I keep forgetting it's not real!)" Indeed, she was arrogant, and felt the rules should not apply to her, she led her son into almost certain death. But she is actually just an actress! Wink

I guess that proves how powerful this all is!

I wonder if Mumsnet could set up a webinair with Peter Kosminsky? I wonder if posters would like that?

TheSecondOfHerName · 25/08/2017 10:36

Some young mothers do have magical childcare fairies, aka family.

Shakira was estranged from her family, so they wouldn't have been able to help.

thecatfromjapan · 25/08/2017 10:54

I'm going to go against the grain here and say I thought the Doc was interesting, rather than unconvincing.

To me, her chief trait was that her thinking was unable to deal with ambiguity. I could well believe that a child growing up with parents who themselves may have that trait, and therefore themselves converted to a an extremist religious position - a chief benefit of which is to offer simplified solutions and a clear narrative as to how to live a life in a nuanced world with reduced ambiguity - would grow up with a similar mindset.

Moreover, add into that a sense that she is not loved by those parents, that they see her as 'failing' them - then you get a child who is trying to both adopt and rebel against that mindset. So you get extreme attention-getting behaviour and rebellion, alongside an extreme mimicry of behaviour her parents 'approve of' (early pregnancy, outside of marriage, but determination to prove she can succeed).

And I could well believe that she would look for something that would allow her both the approval and sense of family that she seeks, alongside something that recognises her 'exceptionalism'. As well as providing a narrative that resolves complexity and ambiguity into simple 'either/or', 'right/wrong' decisions.

So I quite liked the character. In some ways, she was there to demonstrate how radicalisation is a resolution of trauma and a desire to resolve the ambiguities of the experience of living with the Western promise of self-actualisation - and that has been conjoined with a narrative demonstrating the increase of fundamentalist religion more generally (and what those fundamentalist religions offer to modern people).

As other posters have said, the series necessarily homogenised a number of narratives of radicalisation - and that does lead to difficulties. But then, i suppose each narrative of radicalisation is both unique and, at the same time, has certain structural similarities with many others.

thecatfromjapan · 25/08/2017 11:11

Did anyone else catch the interview with Peter Kosminsky just before one of the episodes?

He made the point that the Star Wars narrative, of the plucky groups of dissidents taking on the evil empire, had a very strong place in the Western psyche. He pointed out that it was very possible for people to view ISIS in those terms: plucky outsiders taking on the evil empire.

I thought it was interesting, in that he chose such a mass culture reference, I guess to demonstrate that this is a contemporary phenomenon, with the people involved developing their narratives from popular culture.

I thought it was also interesting that he focused on individualised stories of radicalisation, which focused on emotion-based, perhaps not fully understood-by-the-individual, decisions, rather than people being radicalised 'rationally' through an overtly political message. I think that's the current thinking about radicalisation, isn;t it? It certainly seemed to be the case in the documentary that followed one of the episodes, where the expert visited the mother and charted her son's journey to radicalisation through personal trauma and response.

WhiskeySourpuss · 25/08/2017 12:01

Is the documentary on catch up? I can't seem to find it & is really like to watch.

Jayfee · 25/08/2017 12:13

i wsh i had read cat from japans comments before watching the State. Her comments add immensely to my understanding of it

ImperialBlether · 25/08/2017 13:17

For me too! M

ImperialBlether · 25/08/2017 13:18

No idea where that M came from!

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 25/08/2017 14:16

Catfromjapan, that's so interesting, thank you.

bbcessex · 25/08/2017 14:17

On pondering, which I've been doing a lot since Wednesday (evidence of a powerful show)...
I wonder if Jalal's dad was included to demonstrate the normal, moderate background he'd come from.

I felt his dad balanced things out.. he depicted a Western Muslim who detested all that ISIS stood for.. he used words like 'Britain took us in when no one else would' (paraphrased).. how can you turn against your own people?

Although the actual segment was a little bit soap opera, I thought it was actually a very poignant reminder in the programme that the Jihadis do not speak for all muslims...

LukeCagesWife · 25/08/2017 14:59

I agree that Japan has nailed it. I do find the Doc character in particular intriguing.

newtlover · 25/08/2017 16:37

what was the name of the programme that had the PK interview?

Eryri1981 · 25/08/2017 18:14

Discovered this on 4 On Demand this week and have just finished episode 4.

In contrast to what a lot of pp have said about the doctor character, as a healthcare professional myself, she is the character I can most relate to.

The NHS is not a happy place at the moment, particularly Emergency Medicine, and I can see that with a combination of frustration and disillusionment with the job and the over entitled attitude of many patients/ relatives gives a desire to help "genuine" patients who really need their years of training, care and expertise. This coupled with a strong religious belief and a feeling of close affiliation with a group of people in Syria suffering greatly and in desperate need of those expertise, could easily push a doctor, highly educated as they are, in the direction of an ISIS recruiter. A recruiter who is going to cleverly and manipulatively prey on the doctors compassion to reel them in.

The part of the Doctor character that didn't make sense to me was her as a mother taking her son out there. Even if she genuinely did not realise that they were using child soldiers as young as 10 (I didn't until I watched this drama), surely she would have realised that within the next 6 or 7 years, at the most, that her son would have been recruited to fight for ISIS.

MyBeloved · 25/08/2017 20:13

I think she took her son out there because she mistakenly believed she would not have to get married - he would be her male escort.

Selfish woman.

AdalindSchade · 25/08/2017 21:19

I guess she thought he would stay in school until he was old enough to fight. And when old enough she would have wanted him to fight I guess as she supported the state.

Willowkins · 26/08/2017 00:35

I thought her getting her son to make the choice was to protect her so that, if they were caught, she could say it was his decision not hers. But that was dangerous for him, given what her prospective husband might do in retaliation.

SerfTerf · 26/08/2017 00:40

I thought it was because she recognised that he'd been given adult-level agency too soon (by the regime) and so she knew just telling him wouldn't work. He had to choose to leave and own the decision if he was going to cooperate with sneaking out.

It was linked with her recognising how damaged he'd been but it was clever of her.

Rhubarbginisnotasin · 26/08/2017 01:19

I think she took her son because it was the natural thing for her to do. Where she went. He went. And I doubt very much that even if she'd had someone to leave him with she would have.

Did she think he'd become a fighter at any age let alone 10? I doubt it. I think she expected things to be over very quickly and for there to be no fighting for him to take part in in Utopia.

Rhubarbginisnotasin · 26/08/2017 01:29

This is reminding me now of Sally Jones the woman who went to Syria with her child and who now wants to come home but her son who's her guardian is refusing to let her leave.

Italiangreyhound · 26/08/2017 02:05

This obsession with head covering and gloves etc really reminded me of "Not without my daughter" (The true story of Betty Mahmoody)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_Without_My_Daughter_(film)

There is a scene where Betty's hair is uncovered when she is walking in the street. Suddenly, a truck arrives with a woman with a massive gun and they make her cover her hair and it's all very frantic and scary. This man shouts at her "You must cover all, you must not be careless. Every single hair that is not covered is like a dagger that you aim at the hearts of our martyrs."

I still cannot really understand how women and our covered bodies are somehow a measure of how religious a community is, but it seems to be that way.

Italiangreyhound · 26/08/2017 02:06

When I say our I mean women in general.