Murdered by my daughter

[Snap8TheCat]

On channel 5 right now- is anyone watching?

This story was discussed briefly a little while ago but I think the thread might have been deleted.

It's so very tragic and worse still is neither of them show any remorse.

Thanks for the reminder, will watch on +1.
Very sad

It's horrid isn't it, I got quite caught up in it after the threads on here last year, it's chilling.

The fact her mum punched her and she had to go into care at 6 has been glossed over, which I understand as her mum is sadly not here to defend herself, but I do wonder what happened to her (Kim) to make her so disturbed.

Also annoying that neither of their dads were mentioned?

I did some reading and Kim's dad was a druggie who moved elsewhere and didn't have contact and she was upset about it. And not sure about Lukas dad? Seems like Lukas has lots of brothers all living semi feral with a single aunt. Lukas was expelled from school.

Annoying didn't explain more about their dads, siblings, school history. What was Lukas expelled for for instance.

Just (sort of) finished watching - had it on in the background. They were both so matter of fact in describing wha they did

This is my town. Literally 20 mins walk away from the house, 5 mins car drive

It has shocked everyone right from the beginning

There were a few threads that kept on getting deleted, due to the law of anonymity for children under 18 !

However, this law is wholly inappropriate in relation to crimes committed of this gravity .

These two 'vile' creatures deserve no anonymity whether temporary or permanent in nature. The disgusting thing being that by the time, they are thirty five both will have new identities, so even by releasing their names they will be able to go on and live normal lives.

The very things taken from both Katie and Elizabeth.

I also remember before the threads were deleted, posters offering 'support' for the poor girl, believing that she had not committed such a heinous act willingly !

The law of 'anonymity' for children under 18 should be to protect children from 'stupid' mistakes from something as little as 'shoplifting' to selling drugs at school for example !

The law should not be abused to protect killers such as these, they have in committing such grievous offences have lost the moral right of society protecting their identities.

The way she talks about her own sister, 'I miss her.' It's so disturbing. Like she misses a favourite tea mug.

Yes, I wonder why they glossed over the abuse from the mother.

Just watched it. Had ridiculous row with the 19 year old who thinks their anonymity should not have been revoked and that their 17.5 year sentences are appropriate.

In his defence, he may just have taken the opposite view to mine to wind me up as he's in that sort of mood.

www.judiciary.gov.uk/judgments/markham-edwards-v-the-queen/
I have not seen the documentary but did read the court notes.
Lucas fell short of being diagnosed with a Personality Disorder due to his age. He had however lost his mum to cancer age 5, had various foster placements, been witness to and subject to domestic violence including physical fights with his younger brother and being pinned to the ground the week before with his room having been cleared out.
Kim had been told she would end up like her (drug addicted physically violent) father, had had her room cleared out and possessions thrown/given away. It was Lucas who got her help after her suicide attempt. No mention of it in the court notes but she had spent four months in foster care aged 8(?) after her "christian" mother had punched her jaw. Also witness to domestic violence.
Both seemed to have insecure attachment but Kim was found not to have diminished responsibility due to lack of remorse.
Nature or nurture?

It was a horrific crime but I think often people are hypocrites on this subject. Some posters will say regarding violent children, oh but what was their childhood like, what drove them to it. It seems that they both had horrific lives and that the mother was not a great one and the boy lost his at a very young age and was all over the place. I'm not saying she or the daughter deserved to die of course but the truth about the entire case should be reported.

^Indeed. But then you would not have the whole Bonnie&Clyde/Hindley&Brady narrative, which makes headlines. I believe these children were let down along the way as were Thompson/Venables to the extent that their damaged brain chemistry led to lack of empathy/psychopathy. That does not defend what they did: the slaughter of innocents is indefensible.
But if society brands children as pure evil without looking at the underlying factors how the hell do you rehabilitate or prevent such murders from occurring?

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-37648194
Well balanced article here. In my comments above I queried how old Kim was when struck by her mother, it does say on the bbc that she was six not eight (8, the assault being hit in the jaw and the children being taken into care was published in the article at vice.com "Killers at 14").
The BBC article makes the point however that the mother referred herself to social services and she did seek family therapy 2015 two months after her daughter accused her of trying to strangle her (both victims denied this ever happened). She also sought counselling for her daughter after finding her suicide note.
Sadly it would appear therapy wasn't enough.
This might explain why there was less coverage of alleged abuse
because of the self-referral, because later allegations were unproven and presumably there would have been a cleared enhanced crb check to work within a school environment.
More on attachment disorder here, which is what Lucas is thought to have had.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_disorder

On thE Daily Mail site, several
People have commented that Kim had aspergers that why she sounds cold etc

Wonder if it is true and also whether maybe her mum had it? Could explain mum not being able to emotionally understand her daughter. Maybe Katie was NT and could read her mother's needs that's why they were 'closer'?

Also the partner Graham didn't seem super intelligent and sounded out
Of his depth with th understanding of the trial etc. Wonder if learning issues there and begs the question of the mums abilities etc

Fed up of hearing people trying to make excuses for this girl and her boyfriend murdering her mother and sister. That's what's partly wrong with society today, one's trying to find some excuse for their behaviour (for example they might have brain damage from what they went through when they were younger). A lot of young people go through a lot more than what these 2 did and they don't go on to commit these sort of crimes. These "so called professionals " need to wake up and see that yes, they were only 14 when they committed this crime but it's not because of brain damage, instead they are evil, and who's not to say that when they get out that either teenagers future partner and (god forbid) baby might not be next to suffer. After all, the sister and mother "apparently " favoured each other. There sentences to me were to lenient. Yes, you might be 14 but if you do the crime, then you should definitely do the time. They both deserve everything they get.

Did this young teenager hound their mother and her sister?

Did this young teenager have control financially over them?

In my local news recently there was a young 13 year old who committed suicide within her home, a very wealthy home. The police said they were not questioning anyone in relation to the incident. Seriously? A 13 year old commits suicide within their home and no one questions this?

This is a complex case, much more beyond the 'I killed my mother' tag line.

And for the press to give it a Bonnie and Clyde title was horrendous.

Oh and no one can actually say 'I've been murdered by my daughter'.

Lucas Markham murdered the mother and the daughter.

The title of the programme should be my boyfriend killed my mother and my sister.

This is terribly sad but the child was a child and I do wonder what abuse she and her boyfriend would have been subjected to, and witnessed, to become like this.
The mother isn't here to defend herself but if she punched her daughter then this isn't the best start in life.
They are both damaged children.

MyLieTra - it's not about excuses or about evil. It is about understanding "nurture" which impacts all of us as we grow up in families of varying abilities and competence. Most children with needs in this country are absolutely failed. There is little to no support for children and adults with needs. That is the disgrace. Believe me the professionals who fail our children and that is THE crime, do not do the time in any fucking shape or form. There are no penalties in this country for failing young children. That includes family courts.

I havent followed this case or watched the programme. I believe it would not be appropriate for these 2 individuals to be free for a long time and indeed they are not. But i do wonder if they will be properly helped in young offenders/jail. Another opportunity probably missed.

How can anyone have any sympathy for Kim Edwards !

This was no moment of complete 'madness'. The girl did not order or manipulate Markham to plunge the knife in to both her mum and sister after a momentary psychotic episode (that is pure evil in itself) . Edwards actually had a few days to come out of her 'madness' to change tact and realize and 'freeze' with what she had anticipated to happen like every person who happens not to b e evil.

Then till sit around for a day eating ice cream and watching DVDs requires a level of evil on par with 'Charles Manson' and the killing of Sharon Tate.

Age is no defender of pure evil . Age can be a defence to stupid acts such as stealing a car dealing drugs or even carrying a weapon.

However, there is no defence whatsoever for planning and killing your mother and sister. This especially considering , there was obviously a break in her planning and execution of the crime.

I think she was the more 'guilty' of the two despite not carrying out the crimes.

Luke Markham murdered the mother and the sister.

Let's be very clear about this.

Luke Markham is a double murderer.

The reason why Luke Markham's life is not being combed over with a fine tooth comb is because he pleaded guilty to the murder.

For anyone to say that Edwards is more guilty despite not being the murderer of two people they didn't know is, in my opinion, seriously deranged.