Prisoners of War (Hatufim) [Warning - may contain spoilers!]

[diddl]

Have just got around to watching this.

What a fantastic series!

Brilliant!

Blows Homeland right out of the water imo.

A question though.

When Nimrode, Uri & Amiel were captured, Jamal was attempting to return after 10yrs as an informer.

Was it pure coincidence that the two events happened at the same time?

And the capture happened due to Jamal being followed?

i suppose he realised then that he wouldn't get back so the plan to at least try to get Ismail there using Amiel?

Amazing, wasn't it? I thought it was one of the best and gripping TV shows I've ever seen. (have you seen both series?)

Maybe get MNHQ to put a spoiler alert in your thread title?

Wasn't it Jamal's cell that organised the capturing of the three - so more like, Jamal was planning to return to Israel, but then those three were captured, and he decided to stay? Have you seen Series 2? If not I won't elaborate!

Ah, sorry, see you what you mean now!

Yes, I think it was coincidence that they happened at the same time. Unless you think Israel sent the three in with the specific aim to keep Jamal there, knowing that he would stay? Or that Jamal's cell thought that if they kidnapped three Israeli's then Jamal wouldn't leave?

Yes I've seen both.

Wonder if 3 will ever happen?

I thought that he was being followed as he wasn't really trusted.

(Had said that his wife was in labour & didn't want/need anyone with them)

So I wasn't sure if the captured three were supposed to go in & get him out?

Apparently 3 will happen, yes - the show has been renewed.

Hmmm, but the three seem to have no idea that that's their aim?

It does seem that the whole thing is underpinned by an even more covert, long-term operation than any of those that have so far been revealed - there are far too many coincidences, and at the end of the second series the question was raised that Amiel's rescue may have been a bit too easy

think coincidence makes more sense as otherwise it was pretty much the same as what happened in series2 when Noni went in.

And Atar(?) was alive all that time knowing that Jamal & the other three were there.

I suppose he couldn't include Jamal in the negotiations for the other three, so Jamal had to make his own arrangements for getting Ismail out.

Was confused at the tunnel at the end tjough.

Thought that it was to be blocked off.

Unless they reopened it again!

Have you seen Homeland?

Can't help seeing a similarity between Damian Lewis & the actor who played Uri!

I thought the tunnel had been blocked off too - unless he just lied when he said it was going to be? Bit risky, though.

Haven't seen Homeland, no. I was googling it, trying to decide if I wanted to start a new show, and I kept coming across references to Hatufim, with people raving about how much better it is than Homeland.

Not sure if I'll watch Homeland, now.

When they were captured at the time that Jamal was supposed to be released, it did occur to med that Amiel was being sent in to replace Jamal as an informer & that the best way to do that was for him to "turn " Amiel & that the intention was never for Jamal to be rescued.

When Noni went in, wasn't sure if he was supposed to rescue Amiel or not as I couldn't remember when the person "running" him found out that Amiel was alive.

Was there a significance behind Amiel not wanting children?

Yes he Noni was supposed to rescue Amiel - that was why he was taught the secret finger code.

I thought he didn't want children just because he didn't want to raise them as Muslim in Syria - although he could pretend to take on Islam (and maybe even genuinely taking it on to a certain extent), he wouldn't be able to raise his children as Muslim.

And also just the kind of life a child of his would have - as the child of someone running a jihadist cell. Jamal made him promise to get Ismail out, saying it was no life for a child.

Oh yes, he was supposed to rescue Amiel when he went in of course

What I meant was was that the original plan as surely he had been training for longer than they knew that Amiel was alive?

I can't remember how long the guy training Noni knew that Amiel was still alive. Did he know about the communication through the school books? That had been going on for years.

Who did know about the school books? They were found in the box belonging to the guy from Mossad, but we don't know who else knew about them all along.

Seems like the guy running Noni had his own agenda, too, and it's not clear what it is, or whether Noni is being used for purposes he's not yet aware of.

If Kaplan (Noni's trainer) was connected to Atar, the guy from Mossad who died around the time of the prisoners' release, then Kaplan may well have known about the notebooks, and when he sent Noni to get Atar's box (the others got there first), he may have known exactly what he was looking for.

Interesting that his plan is called operation "Judas"

Atar had always known that Amiel was alive, hadn't he as the CD was found at his house?

But I wasn't sure if the guy training Noni knew until Haim told him.

I also think that Atar had Jamal's BIL shot so that he would accept the mission.

So Jamal was passing info for some years until Atar died so I wonder if Amiel was sent in to kill Abdullah & Layla's father as waiting until Noni was trained up seems a ridiculous amount of time!

Yes, Ze'ev(?) seems very sinister, shredding the letters that Noni left.

Did he know that he would come back, or wanted to make sure that there was no evidence at all if he didn't?

For a third series there could (imo) be so much more than just whether or not Amiel is true to Israel.

There's also Jamal's son caught between the two countries!

I think he just wanted to destroy all evidence that would relate to himself running operation Judas. I wonder if Ze-ev wanted Amiel back in Israel for his own purposes - maybe something to do with Amiel's communications with Atar. And that bringing down the cell in Syria was never really the main aim, but that Noni was told that it was.

Yes, agree that Jamal's BIL was shot to ensure that Jamal would accept the mission.

Maybe Amiel's taking the place of Jamal was unforeseen by any of them - maybe when Jamal became ill (which nobody could know would happen), he and Atar discussed using one of the three prisoners as a replacement, and they chose Amiel (or perhaps would have chosen Uri had Nimrod refused to beat up Amiel - they may have pretended to kill Uri and then have him trained up to replace Jamal).

But yes - lots of stuff for future series!

Ismail's torn loyalties, Ze'ev's plans (whatever they are), the cell in Syria and its reaction to losing its leaders and learning that Amiel is partly responsible. Interesting also that Uri has gone travelling, leaving just Amiel and Nimrode in Israel - both of whom will probably be somehow involved in Ze'ev's plans, and they have a big thing in their relationship - the fact that Nimrode "chose" to save Uri over Amiel. So Nimrode's guilt, but also that it meant that Amiel was sort of free for a lot longer than the other two (he was taken to his 'new life' after about five years, wasn't he, whilst the other two were still being tortured for a further 12 years. And in the end Amiel was home only one year later than the other two.

I think that one of the hard things to accept is the extent of the torture, but I suppose Jamal had to be not giving away that he was an Israeli!

Also, Abdullah was only released from Israel when Uri and Nimrod were released from Syria - that was the deal that took years to sort out as so many people were against it.

So maybe Noni's training was just continuing practice, waiting for Abdullah's release?

Yes, I couldn't quite get the timeline of when they thought that Nimrode had killed Amiel & also when Uri started to help Ismail with his maths & whether he was still being slung back in the cell & tortured between times & what was going on with Nimrode then!

The other thing of course is that Abdullah had been released for Nimrode & Uri, & then the same people who released him went in & killed him!

Yes the torture was a bit of tricky point to get over (and kind of unwatchable). But remember that woman's lectures on torture? She made it seem like the whole point was to break the person down, then be help them recover so that they will feel grateful to you - the only way to get Amiel to work for the cell.

Doesn't explain the continuing torture of the other two, for the next 12 years, unless Jamal just saw it as collateral damage. Atar must have known that they were being tortured - remember how shocked Uri and Nimrode were when they realised that the Israeli authorities had known for years where they were being held? Even the Israeli's didn't do anything to stop their own soldiers being tortured, and Jamal was partly under their orders, so they must have known about the torture, as well as where they were being held.

It seems that Noni was working only for Ze'ev, though, and it seems that no one (except maybe Atar?) knew what Ze'ev was up to.

Atar died in a car accident, right? Set up by Ze'ev, perhaps?

And having Noni killing Abdullah works for all of them - he's on a secret mission, he was officially dismissed by the authorities because of his personal connection to the school killings. So if anyone ever finds out it was him, would be easy to pass him off as rogue working alone and out of personal revenge because Abdullah killed his father.

I think yes, Uri was just back in his cell in between maths tutoring, and it all started when the child was about five. Uri thought at one point he'd seen Amiel at the child's house, didn't he?

Not sure about when they thought Amiel had died. Wasn't it around the time that Jamal's wife died in child birth? Was it just after that he took Amiel into his home? Or, hang on, did Amiel meet Jamal's wife? So he would have been out of prison before she died?

Nimrode was just still in his cell alone during tutoring, I suppose. I think he knew what Uri was doing - he asked him to bring him back an apple once.

Yes, who did know where they were ?

Just Atar because Jamal was telling him?

I was surprised that Layla stayed.

Although that does leave it open for Amiel being conflicted.

What will happen to her & her mum for being Amiel's wife & MIL?

How much did she know of what her father condoned I wonder?

Yes the breaking them down to help recover & they'll do anýthing for you.

But I wonder how much is also doing/saying anything to stay alive?

As opposed to really taking on a different religion & holding the beliefs of the cell?

Just remembered that it was Ismail who actually killed Abdullah, wasn't it? Noni wasn't even there - he was back at the house with Layla. And Amiel killed Layla's father. So Noni didn't kill anyone at all, in the end.

Yes, I wonder what will happen to Layla. I think she must have known most of what her father and the cell condoned, and probably didn't think it was bad. Each side in the conflict thinks they're right.

Jamal was an Arab Israeli, so probably already held many of the same beliefs of those in the cell, and considered the Israeli Jews to be an occupying presence in Israel and having stolen land. And we never saw what happened to Abdullah and other prisoners in Israel - but it's unlikely they were treated with compassion! Jamal told Amiel how much he loved the people in Syria, and considered them to be his people.

Hard to figure out how Amiel really felt, and how much he was pretending.

I think quite a few people knew were they were. It was the psychiatrist Haim who let it slip, and there was lots he didn't know, so if even he knew where they were being held it seems like a lot of people must have been in the know.

Oh no, Noni was there, but it was Ismail who did the killing. Noni lowered his gun.

I think that Ismail killed Abdullah to save Amiel, but of course that doesn't mean that he didn't agree with anything that Abdullah did.

Do we think that Abdullah is really dead?

Yes, Noni was a let down!

Maybe because of Yael?

i thought that when Abdullah turned the gun from Amiel, Noni would quickly raise & shoot him then, as obviously Abdullah would have killed/injured Noni & then in quick succession killed or incapacitated Amiel?

"Each side in the conflict thinks they're right."

Yes, the awful bit when Amiel was tricked into killing the boy with the "justification" that his family were collaborators & he would have been killed at some point anyway.

just completely unfathomable way of thinking to me!

Yes, Ismail killed Abdullah to save Amiel, but then, why didn't Noni? Or did he worry that Abdullah would be quicker and would kill Amiel first? But then, didn't Ismail have that fear, too? Or maybe he acted more instinctively, being younger, and having a relationship with and trust in Amiel?

Still can't work Noni out - why would he even care if Amiel was saved or not? The show seemed to keep emphasising how much he was driven to avenge his father and kill Abdullah - he even carried a photo of Abdullah in his wallet, with one of his parents! And he was 'dismissed' and secretly trained because they knew he had powerful reasons for killing Abdullah.

Yes, maybe Yael? If he loves her that much then his position is compromised, too?

Not convinced Abdullah is dead, no! He was shot in the stomach, so he could still be alive.

The bit when Amiel was tricked was horrible. But what else could he do?

Interesting how so many people in the show are pulled by so many different motives, and the role of the women they love may have a lot of part to play in the next series (Amiel and Layla, Noni and Yael).

I can't wait for it to start! Apparently it's being made this year - I wish they'd hurry up!

I watched most of series 2 in one go, when I couldn't sleep. My heart was going crazy for the last two episodes, and when it was revealed that it was Abdullah who was shot, and by Ismail, my jaw literally dropped!