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Telly addicts

Sherlock finale thread- WARNING SPOILERS

494 replies

Allthingsprettyreturns · 12/01/2014 19:21

Starting the thread in antcipation!

OP posts:
PsammeadPaintedTheLion · 14/01/2014 18:20

I think the best Holmes I have seen recently is Dr. House!

I do like these series but it's all too ordinary. With Holmes you expect to be impressed, a bit like a magician might impress you, but knowing that there is sound, ruthless logic behind it. They leave too many clues for the viewer in this adaptation. The close-ups of the two soldiers putting on their belts, for example, in the wedding one was an obvious pointer. I want to be dazzled, not made to feel quasi-smart.

TheDoctrineOf2014 · 14/01/2014 18:27

See, I think missing the method of killing the first soldier was much less Holmesian than anything to do with Mary. The guests were coming up with all sorts of solutions but surely Holmes (or someone) would have examined the soldier's clothes.

lljkk · 14/01/2014 18:58

Was Billy Wiggins in the original stories?

PsammeadPaintedTheLion · 14/01/2014 19:00

Agree. And the thin blade would have still had a smear of blood on it,which would have been wiped off on the white belt as it passed back out. Seeing as how he was supposed to have been killed whilst naked in the shower, that would have been a clue even Lestrade would have seen as relevant! Grin

BigBoPeep · 14/01/2014 20:07

I like the standalone tale of crime type of episode. Agree that:

a) Holmes is getting way too much wrong. I like him to stumble occasionally and I do think he knew about CAMs mindpalace (hell, even I did) but missing exactly what the deal was about Mary and the dead soldier was :S

b) The whole 'watson's wife' storyline makes me want to puke, and is not helped by the fact she is his actual wife. I also thought it was OTT to bring in sherlock's parents and use BCs actual parents and numerous other family connections in it. Seems like they are using it as a vehicle to get all their friends and families paid? I WILL stop watching if we get 'oh haha, sherlock has to change a nappy' scenes Angry. I am left wondering why sherlock gives a shit about protecting mary quite frankly, once john had forgiven her. Not sure why he'd want to help keep her past from him in the first place either? OK john loves mary and itd hurt him to lose her but if its that bad, you'd think your friend had a right to know.

c) They are laying it on a bit thick about Holmes & Watson. I like subtlety, and I feel like I'm being hit over the head with a brick with HOLMES REALLY CARES ABOUT WATSON, I get it, thanks.

d) They are overdoing the 'main character in jeopardy' thing, gets very repetitive.

I love Mycroft and the tension between them though.

I hope that points a and b are linked, and that Holmes actually does know much more about Mary and always did...and we can get rid of her soon.

As for Moriarty, I thought he died far too easily. It also strikes me that SH and Moriarty actually enjoy the challenge of each other, the only ones who CAN challenge each other, really, and it would not surprise me if they did not cook something up between them on that roof. But equally I can see that somebody else is using the Moriarty thing as a way of getting to Sherlock.

LittleBearPad · 14/01/2014 20:10

Psammead if you liked House you may well like Elementary. The lovely Johnny Miller as Sherlock and made by the house people.

winterkills · 14/01/2014 20:38

Agree BigBoPeep the nepotism thing has got way out of hand - as someone pointed out upthread, the boy who played the young Sherlock is Steven Moffat's SON fgs!

Surely there's some kind of BBC rule on these things? I suppose they don't dare oppose the golden geese...

I thought the young Sherlock thing was sooo lame as well - the idea of him as a snivelling lad, getting all upset because naughty Mycwoft is being all howwible to him. Young Sherlock might be vulnerable but he should also be the prototype of adult Sherlock - self-reliant, bold, rational.

Punkatheart · 14/01/2014 21:09

TV is desperately incestuous and no, there are no rules. I speak from experience - my ex worked in film and Tv.

lljkk · 14/01/2014 21:30

I think it's hilarious they have real relationships; and I hate it when fictional blood relatives don't look remotely like each other. So cool by me. I wouldn't want every programme to be like that, but fine in small measures.

BigBoPeep · 14/01/2014 21:46

I guess I'd be fine-r with it if it wasnt so crowbarred in. The series is about holmes and watson, not holmes, watson and some other bird no one cares about. Don't mind one off appearances like moriarty's defence lawyer or even young sherlock to please a writer's son, but mary has been injected right into the heart of it and I don't even know why.

LittleBearPad · 14/01/2014 21:52

I like the fact that bc's parents are playing his parents.

AndiMac · 14/01/2014 21:52

To be fair, she's pretty good as Mary. If she was awful, I'd have more issue with it.

BigBoPeep · 14/01/2014 22:10

agreed Andi, the woman herself is fine it's just the whole character being a MUCH bigger role than she was in the books, getting in the way of the holmes/watson thing the whole thing hinges on AND the fact she's married to a major cast member makes me go Hmm rather furiously

TheDoctrineOf2014 · 14/01/2014 22:33

Yes, but in the era of the books, wife sitting at home doing embroidery whilst husband went on big adventure was plausible...

PedantMarina · 14/01/2014 23:02

I'm reading people's derison [about modernising too much], and I'm sorry, but there has to be some element of it. I'm not talking about technology, but sociology.

(to confirm, I had read the books)

Mrs Hudson had no back story because she was just a woman, there to mind the house for the boys.

Mary was just a wife - somebody to draw Watson away from Holmes and give him a proper home/family. Of course she was going to get killed off in the story if it didn't suit the overall plot (I don't specifically remember this, but am mainly assuming it happened when Conan Doyle was forced to bring the franchise back to life).

But my main gripe with the original stories, and what I am PROFOUNDLY grateful isn't being replicated in the Gatiss/Moffat franchise is, is how phenomenally badly treated women were.

There was the story - vaguely alluded to in the wedding episode - where Holmes figures out that the man who jilted his client on the way to her wedding was her step-father all along. DStF did it with the help of her DM and, in the story Holmes not only doesn't call the police (apparently not unlawful), he releases him to go home (without elpfully punching the guy's lights out), and then proceeds to NOT EVEN BOTHER TO TELL HIS CLIENT. As, DStF scampers home to probably continue the abuse for another several years, Holmes says to Watson: "If I tell her she will not believe me. You may remember the old Persian saying, "There is danger for him who taketh the tiger cub, and danger also for whoso snatches a delusion from a woman." Like, WTAF?

In another story (The Speckled Band), the bad guy gets it, mainly via natural causes, but the setup for the story relied on the woman/women being so appallingly stupid (not just about subjects for which they might have been denied education, but simple domestic stuff) it simply beggars belief, I think even from the Victorian mind.

So, bottom line, I am VERY happy with those aspects of the updating that allow women some depth and intelligence. Can't complain about that.

HettiePetal · 15/01/2014 07:01

I have to disagree re: Amanda Abingdon's performance as Mary (although I know I'm probably a lone voice). She's not completely terrible - but she's not particularly good either. She's acted off the screen by everyone she's on it with, and her portrayal annoys me because of this.

But it's not her fault that they've taken the story in this direction. I honestly think it's a massive mistake not to have gotten rid of her. I'm dreading the Two Men & A Baby scenes that are pretty inevitable in the next series.

BigBoPeep · 15/01/2014 08:56

I do agree hettie, thats eactly it - she's not awful, but she's not brilliant either, and it shows.

and mary could have a job without being such a massive sore thumb in the middle of everything.

I like the janine character: came across as an airhead, but turned that around. I like that. I was a bit worried they were portraying all women as dumb slaves to their emotions and any fanciable man that went past, but they didnt fall into that trap!

(are janine and mary working together though? Because I assumed it was mary who knocked her out in CAMs penthouse, but they seemed on perfectly good terms when she visited SH in hospital?

THERhubarb · 15/01/2014 10:28

Doyle does not draw on ANY of the characters not just Mrs Hudson and Mrs Watson. We are given NO details as to Holmes' private life and scant details about Watson's.

Doyle didn't include it because he didn't feel it was relevant.

In a Scandal in Bohemia Watson talks of his marriage, how happy it has made him and how he saw little of his "former friend". Note the word "former" here.

Holmes is described by Watson thus: "all emotions, and that one [love] particularly, were abhorrent to his cold, precise, but admirably balanced mind....as a lover, he would have placed himself in a false position....for the trained reasoner to admit such intrusions into his own delicate and finely adjusted temperament was to introduce a distracting factor which might throw a doubt upon all his mental results."

Please try to understand my point.

It is not that they have modernised Holmes, nor built on other characters or even that they have introduced new elements to the stories, but that they have changed the fundamental personality of Holmes.

They got him drunk. Holmes would never have allowed his mind to become so unfocused, he was a man who remained in control AT ALL TIMES.

They had him give a speech at a wedding with 'hilarious' results. Yet Holmes "loathed every form of society with his whole Bohemian soul."

They have made him appear vulnerable, even fragile.
They have made him out to be self analytical when in truth, he couldn't give a toss what people thought of him and would never have spent much time wondering why he was so different.
They made him foolish. Yet Holmes was rarely wrong, he never acted spontaneously but with careful and deliberate thought. Nothing would have escaped his attention and those who sought to fool him with clever disguises were always revealed by him within seconds.
They have turned him into a murderer. Holmes may have pistol-whipped people and he was a fine boxer who could certainly defend himself but to shoot someone? Watson was in no danger - Holmes would not have shot anyone.

Yes he cared about Holmes, that is apparent in the stories.

He was not dismissive to women at all. He kept the photo of Irene Adler - the first person to ever outwit Holmes (thank you Doyle) but there was also Violet Hunter in the Copper Beeches whom Holmes admired so much that Watson thought he might stay in contact with her.

There were many men who Doyle made just as foolish and in fact Holmes agreed with the King of Bohemia that Irene Adler was in a different league altogether from him, and he didn't mean it as a compliment to the King.

Doyle wrote for a Victorian audience and I think, under the restrictions of the age, he did very well.

My main objection to BBC's Sherlock is the unravelling of the character himself. If you take away the mystery you take away the appeal. Holmes is not meant to be understood and analysed and pigeon holed.

He's been labelled a sociopath (not true), he's made out to have suffered as a victim of bullying, his nature revealed because of a traumatic childhood, his parents wheeled out, his vulnerabilities exposed, etc.

That he would ever have agreed to go on a stag night, that he would not notice Watson spiking his drink, that he would allow himself to get out of control, that he would not notice Mary's deception, that he'd allow people into his private life (he and Watson were long time friends before Watson even found out he had a brother) that he'd psycho-analyse himself, that he'd shoot a man in cold blood (not even in defence and kill someone who was not even a murderer) none of these things ring true.

They've just stamped all over the character of Holmes. By all means modernise the stories and add new elements, new characters, new thrills but don't take away the one constant feature which is of the Great Man himself. Not unless you are doing an obvious parady, which they deny.

As for family affairs - Moffat and Gatiss said that they chose BC's parents for the resemblance. They must have adopted Mycroft then.

THERhubarb · 15/01/2014 10:30

he cared about Watson rather and read parody instead of the appauling spelling mistake I've added Blush

TheDoctrineOf2014 · 15/01/2014 10:34

Rhubarb, I think the point in the books was that CAM was a killer - driving people to suicide and the TV plied influencing government policy, which might be in the area of war, for example.

THERhubarb · 15/01/2014 10:48

Yes but in the series CAM made a point of saying that he was not a murderer.

I agree in the books Holmes doesn't make a big deal of the fact that CAM has been killed. But Holmes did not shoot him and would not have done so. He may not have liked the man and may have thought him responsible for many deaths, but that would not have justified Holmes bumping him off.

Oh and someone upthread said about Watson being asked to take his gun. Holmes always asked Watson to bring his gun on expeditions. Holmes had a revolver of his own but save in the Three Garridebs I don't recall him taking his very often, he just used to call upon Watson instead. As Watson served in the army no doubt he thought him better able to use one.

TheDoctrineOf2014 · 15/01/2014 10:52

I a agree with much of your post though I don't think it's possible in this day and age for people not to have an opinion on what makes someone who they are.

I was surprised at the introduction of parents, though!

THERhubarb · 15/01/2014 10:58

Oh everyone has an opinion, but was it really necessary to delve into Holmes' past in so much detail and make him so vulnerable and fragile? Does everyone have to be portrayed as vulnerable nowadays? Is that the new sexy too?

Doctor Who is a bloody alien and they've made him fall in love, get soppy, let emotions distract him, be influenced by relationships, open up his past, show his vulnerable side, etc. It's a mark of Gatiss and Moffat and I don't appreciate it.

Not once were his parents mentioned in the books. Not once. Or Watson's.

HettiePetal · 15/01/2014 11:00

They got him drunk. Holmes would never have allowed his mind to become so unfocused, he was a man who remained in control AT ALL TIMES

He was a drug addict!

I think your summary of the character of Holmes is a bit at odds with the stories, to be honest. Certainly Watson described him as this cold, thinking machine type - but Holmes's behaviour throughout showed flashes of humanity and compassion. He was a deeply moral person - and his care for Watson was clear.

All the writers have done is to take the framework ACD created and thought about what this might mean in the modern world. For drug addict read nicotine addict. For unemotional thinking machine, read sociopath.

Yes, he made a speech at John's wedding. Yes, it was emotional. But the point was that he had no idea it was emotional, and did a Hmm face at everyone dabbing their eyes. He wasn't speaking from emotion, it was a simple matter of fact for him. That IS Sherlock Holmes, and that's what makes him different.

Everything, but everything, we see in BC's Holmes is consistent with ACD's original. Everything. They really haven't changed either Holmes or Watson, they've changed the world around them - and that's what makes the show so very, very good. Because it is, in spite of the many and myriad inconsistencies, it's still the very best thing on TV at the moment.

SM & MG clearly love the characters & what's clear from everything they say is that they try very hard to keep everything consistent with the originals.

HettiePetal · 15/01/2014 11:02

I don't think BC's Holmes is remotely vulnerable & fragile.

But he is a human being. He once was a child, and children cry.

I do think you have this idea of the man being, literally, not quite human. These writers aren't making him human, they are acknowledging that he is.