ABA TV documentary - 5 Nov, 9pm, BBC Four

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Anyone else going to be watching this?

I don't believe it will make a child with autism NT, and in cases like the boy in Sweden I think he was probably misdiagnosed at 3.

People have said similar about my ds, who is now 6.5 - the difference in him is astonishing. Npt because he's 'cured' but because at 3 he coudn't communicate, didn't really engage except on his narrow, rigid terms, didn't play, and left to himself would have spent all day on the same repetitive non-functional actitivy.

I don't think I knew what his personality was when he was dx at 3. He is now a sweet and lovely boy (stroppy and all that too, of course) and definitely ASD, but his skills now enable him to engage with the world to the extent that you can describe his personality. Many people who know him now have difficulty believing he has autism, and actually I think I'd struggle to get him a dx if he was assessed now - not because he was misdiagnosed, or 'masks' his autism, but because he has been taught so much which many people (paediatricians included) believe not possible for someone with autism.

It certainly took a hell of a lot of painstaking work by us too - times 3, and yes DD still isn't quite there.

But it's happening gradually. Just because it wasn't achieved by ABA doesn't make it wrong.

I've already said if ABA works for you go for it - only to be tokd it didn't work for me cos I did it wrong - how rude!

bialystock, similar could be said for my dd.

several parents at her (ABA) school initially wondered why she was there. she is so far removed from the toddler who was diagnosed at 2 that it is incredibly difficult to even remember what she was like back then.

She has a severe language disorder as well as ASD, and I think if she were to be dx'd today, it would be the language element that would be seen, as she also displays so many behaviours which are 'not possible' for someone with autism.

we have just been on holiday. there were at least 4 occasions where the surprise shown when autism was mentioned was genuine . at the airport on the way home, I was chatting to another family for a good 30 minutes (while also chatting to dd) before I had to explain her behaviour. And when I mentioned autism they were shocked, because it was not a possibility that had entered their heads. never thought that would be possible

Just want to join this thread as am currently studying Behaviourism and in turn ABA. Also have two dc with ASD. I have learned more from this discussion than reading my text book!

ABA can't not work. That wouldn't make any sense scientifically.

Poor application of ABA would still work, though just not with the outcome you wanted.

Really? Even if you have a child entirely unmotivated by reward?

I think there is a lot of misconception about what rewards are.

If a child does something, anything, then they were motivated to do it by the reward it brings them above all other possible alternative actions.

bialystockandbloom, it's interesting you say he is definitely ASD but you think you'd struggle to get a dx now, I think this is why in lots of areas they don't like to diagnose before 7 because some children can develop a lot in that time. Not saying your son would have got to where he is without intervention, rather it is difficult to know how a child will develop either with or without intervention, or, for example, if they also have a learning disability. It's great that your son has come on so well by the way.

I think in the case of the boy in Sweden they were claiming he didn't have any features of autism now, although I may have missed them saying he did.

And if they just sit still unmoving, then THAT is what they are currently most motivated to do.

But starting intervention at age 7 misses all of the early years opportunities when the brain is at it's most receptive to learning skills.

And you don't reward behaviour, you reinforce it. Which is why it can't not work.

You identify the behaviour you want to see more of, and those you want to see less of and change YOUR behaviour to get the child to want to do more of one and less of the other. You keep changing your behaviour until it happens, and then you keep changing your behaviour to get it to happen faster.

the bottom line is that ABA is used everywhere, everyday without even realizing that's what's happening. It shapes our everyday behaviours. It is the only intervention with years and years of peer reviewed research to back up its effectiveness. If parents and professionals would rather close their eyes to that and go with the eclectic intervention that isn't shown to work then that's their prerogative. If they would rather watch their child stim all day rather than do something about it, fine. I just hope parents who don't use ABA or are resistant to its methods ask themselves where their child will be when they are 18 and how will their behaviours be managed then.

I just want to say that as a speech therapist working intensively with language disordered kids I use mainlt ABA teaching methods with no external reinforcement.

I work at secondary and the kids are motivated primarily by the fact that in their sessions they get to work at a level and in a way where they see progress and where it's tailored to their unique learning profile at that point in time. In their mainstream classes frequently vocab is well above their comprehension and tasks are so incredibly demanding that opportunities for independent learning are limited.

In our sessions we just pinpoint exactly where they are at, exactly the next steps they need and we set up tge learning so they can practice the skills they need independently and see their progress. A good example is a little girl who came to us from primary having had SIX years working on answering how and why questions. These are pretty critical foundation skills for learning in secondary. At baseline assessment she was only getting about 20% right. After a term of working intensively on the same standard materials most professionals use to teach these but doing so intensively and behaviourally, she got 90% on an assessment of new 'how/why' questions she hadn't been asked before. She also started answering in class.

She never got a sticker, star, sweet or even a 'good girl' as we don't talk like that at secondary. She did get our unwavering belief she could do better. It was and is her own motivation that spurs her on.

Students with autism don't always have that social drive to do better for themselves or others in a clear cut way where they see that if they practice x it will lead to y gain in their life. So tangible and extrinsic reinforcement is more common with this client group as a STEP towards making those links so that hopefully one day the reinforcement comes from within.

The whole educational system in the UK in special ed isbased on isolating specific behaviours and practising them to mastery. It IS the IEP system. All targets need to be smart eg specific, measurable, attainable, realistic and timed. It is based on applied analysis of behaviour. Why not use the scientific lliterature to do that well vs shooting in the dark?

Make no mistake. I'm a speech therapist. I do speech therapy things, not some sort of ABA 'program'. I just use what I know of task analysis and a variety of behavioral techniques that are common to special ed settings in the UK like social skills groups, precision teaching, direct instruction etc with better knowledge of those things than most of my peers. All this means in real terms is I get results because I am not spending most of my time endlessly cutting and pasting 'strategies' and puzzling over how to make these smart when they're sort of... waffle.

ABA is really much misunderstood!

Oh and incidentally I have seen SHOCKING ABA practice. SHOCKING special school practice too... there are a lot of crappy providers out there.

I am not tied to any one school of thought or practice, I do what works for the kids I work with.

Bottom line for me is, after one session of working with a child on something can you prove that they know or can do something differently to before that session began? If not, teaching isn't effective. I don't much carehow that comes about as long as it is ethicak and effective.

Last night my nearly-four year old NT kiddo went to the bonfire with us. Like many young kids he's a bit scared of fireworks. When we got to the park, the first ones went off and he started screaming HYSTERICALLY and begging to go home.

This is a great example of a very common situation where a bit of common sense behavioural thinking was needed.

If we left, we would have reinforced his idea that fireworks are dangerous and terrifying and also the reso of us would have been crabby and disappointed.

If we just ignored his screaming and/or shouted at him (as many do) we would have potentially made fireworkseven more aversive in future.

So we made a game of it. He is massively into superheroes right now so we labelled the green ones hulk, the red ones spiderman, blue/white/red captain america etc. For five mins we held him and just modelled excitement and kept the momentum high. We'd bought a light sword on the way in and we demonstrated bashing the ones he was scared of. Five minutes in he asked to be popped down and watched the rest of it shouting out superhero names.

It's basic ABA. Paired reinforcement (superheroes and cuddles linked to fireworks), preventing escape behaviour/avoidance, modelling, reducing support (all singing/dancing at start, fading this out as his distress reduced etc so he took it over).

With NT kids this stuff just works instantly in many cases. It is sort of intuitive for most parents too as they have a prior learning history of what approach works for their individual child, what will motivate and reinforce them in any given moment, when to keep it high, when to reduce support or praise and let them just get on with it. No one would even consider they were 'doing' anything let alone analysing and responding to behaviour. Yet we all do this stuff... it just requires different and more intense approaches sometimes for some kids. Yet the golden rule is you do the least necessary to get the result you want. A hardcore Supernanny approach is also ABA and might have had my son stick out the bonfire. ... but it would be against my morals and values so a softer approach that got desired result was what I needed.

It is all behaviour. If what you do works, it could almost certainly be analysed from an ABA framework just because it doesn't involve massed trials or tangibles etc. Modelling and shaping are behavioural techniques too!

working that's really interesting - perfectly illustrates how all of us, every single minute of every day, are having our behaviour and responses shaped by the behaviour of others towards us.

ABA is just that really - an intensive, tailored analysis of behaviour, and then adapting how we respond as parents/teachers to that behaviour.

buskersdog I have absolutely no doubt that if my ds had not had ABA he would not be where he is today, and that if we had waited till 7 he would not have naturally grown out of it. There was no question of misdiagnosis.

He was 3.5 when he was dx, and when we started ABA, and there was no doubt about the diagnosis then, he was showing clear impairments in the core triad (communication, interaction, imagination), though he didn't have many of the traits commonly associated with autism (no sensory issues, no need for routine, no stims). I know that if we had not been shown a way to motivate him to learn and engage, he would have retreated further into an increasingly narrow, rigid world (it was happening before our eyes between the age of 2-3.5). Tbh I think it's shocking that there could be a blanket policy of not dx before 7yo. I cannot see how children with a different developmental path could just naturally grow out of it without meaningful intervention.

I watched this ,my sister went to a special school and she started talking , writing although her speech is incredibly limited its better than none.

However she started a residential day centre at 18 + and my DM does have concerns about how well the staff are trained, too easy for poorly educated,ignorant people to get jobs in these places and some of my sisters obsessive behaviours have gotten worse.

I would have like to have seen more about what else ABA schools did, or is it just constant drilling?
That Gunner became a bit of a childcatcher/caricature didn't he? my and the hubby were in hysterics most of his screen time, "I don't appreciate autism!" I don't think anyone does

Basic behaviour training isn't always if ever, going to work on a severe case where elements of brain damage/stunted brain growth is at play. My sister is essentially stuck at a toddlers level, a young toddler at that,

ABA will work with some kids but not all, I think perhaps the older ways frighten people, the footage from the 60's was horrible , but teachers in general were more cruel to children so more telling of the times than the technique.

Howling, as a sample day (my dd is at an ABA school), dd will do:

arrive, and have registration (circle time: greet everyone, complete the register and talk through the day)

she has, on any single day, various groups (could be SALT group, OT group, handskills, topic work, etc). today she has topic work (they are working on nationality and identity. she will be making a flag as well as examining various object of cultural significance to each class member) and SALT group (she will be reading through her group book, and working on some of her SALT targets - to answer questions about the text and find points in the story to illustrate her answer). these groups can be from 3 children up to whole class (6 children), or may be mixed in the case of OT for eg, and made up of children from across classes, according to ability and activity.

in between, she will also work at her desk, with her tutor 1:1. she will work on literacy (at the moment concentrating on spelling in a variety of ways - handwriting, typing), numeracy (beginning column addition using 2 digit numbers, and working on monetary values), and may also practise things like a new board game to share at social skills group. she will also work on creating mind maps, to help with her SALT targets of widening vocabulary and increasing conversational ability.

as part of her conversation targets, she goes with her tutor to talk to less familiar tutors (dd finds conversation difficult, yet enjoys talking to people; increasing her repertoire of conversations means she can share with a greater variety of people; exposing her to less familiar tutors means she has to work at getting her meaning across in a better way, as these tutors will not 'know' dd and won't be able to compensate at all. naturally, she practises with her tutor first until she is comfortable, and the unfamiliar tutors have been primed so that the interaction can be a success)

she also has daily living skills to work on - she is 9, and so school are beginning to prepare for body changes and puberty. so she is learning about bodies, and about her own body. she also helps to clear up at lunch and snack times, and there is a rota to help with things like loading the dishwasher, or putting items away/wiping tables etc.

in OT group, she is working on motor skills via cutting, bike riding, and yoga!

her playskills targets include learning new tunes on the piano (she has mastered several so far, from nursery rhymes to show tunes), and playing a game of a peer's choosing (they take it in turns to choose the game, and play nicely)

and all that is just an overview! her day is as varied (and possibly more so given the utter flexibility of having your own curriculum and tutor) as dd2's (in Yr2). each target on her comprehensive IEP can be taught in a variety of ways and situations, and is done so. each target is flexible across the day - so while working on her motor skills via yoga, she is also working on her listening skills and imitation skills. while working on her conversation via mind maps, she is also reading, matching, writing etc (just like any child at any school).

the absolute last thing she is doing is sitting at a desk all day long doing trials.

But would probably do more verbal affirmation and would hold back on the raisins/sweets

I've always avoided food rewards with DS1, since he has an over-emotional relationship with food, already, but, quite often, gushing praise makes him really quite angry. He's only just beginning to understand, at almost 10, that someone being pleased with you is quite a nice feeling. Sometimes. There are still many times when he doesn't care if someone is pleased.

He is so extremely demand avoidant that he'd often refuse to do something he enjoyed if he knew it met someone else's approval.

Without a complex chart, with specific, motivating rewards for tiny steps in the whole process, I suspect he would still be in nappies.

ouryve - snap. dd doesn't always like it if we praise her, and certainly gushing, over-the-top praise has always unnerved her. she spent a lot of our recent holiday saying 'don't say 'well done, dd' ' as it made her uncomfortable.

More snarky remarks.
Where do you get off telling me my way is inferior when it works for us?

No, I don't sit there watching my kids stimulating all day. Just because I don't do the sainted fucking ABA doesn't mean a prescribed route of x, y and z will happen.

What is it with you lot? Are you that closed minded that anyone who dares yo do things differently must be sniped at, derided and inferred as a bad parent?

Gobby I don't think (but excuse me if I've missed it) that anyone has said directly that what you do with your children is "wrong". Surely there is no right or wrong, just what works for the individuals and their families....?

Most stories here seem to be from those who have had a good response to ABA, probably inevitable because of the title, but I for one would never assume that what works for one works for all. Each child is individual and therefore must be treated accordingly. For those of us without SN we are all different and respond differently to things, so why would those with SN be expected to be any different (too many "differents" there); probably clumsily worded, but what I'm trying to say is that in my limited knowledge is that there is no "one size fits all", and you should carry on doing whatever works for you and your family, without feeling pressured.

I used to teach at an ABA school, so watched the documentary with interest.

I have seen it work miracles for some children, and fail spectacularly (for whatever reason) with others.

I now work with trauma experienced children and would have grave reservations about using ABA with children who have experienced trauma, abuse and neglect. It may well be appropriate in some cases, but problems can occur when the function of a behaviour is not fully understood, and the child's prior experiences mean that they are unable to link positive reinforcement with desired behaviour in a tangible way. Standard ABA techniques such as ignoring unwanted behaviours can be very harmful to a neglected child, and most ABA practice I have seen in the UK and the US takes little account of this.

I think ABA can work and can work brilliantly- but not for every single child.

Gobby, if you want your child to behave in a certain way, then you do something to encourage that, and the child's behaviour moves in the direction you hoped for, then you have succeeded at ABA.

A rather clumsy version that you would find difficult to prove effective without recording, but next time the situation occurs you'd not only know what you can do but you may have an idea how to make it happen faster or better. That is also ABA.

It's highly likely that you are using ABA without realising it, if you are getting effective results.