ABA TV documentary - 5 Nov, 9pm, BBC Four

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Anyone else going to be watching this?

So Rentahouse how would you teach an NT child that things have their own intrinsic rewards?

How would you then teach a child with ASD who is unmotivated by social acceptance or praise?

"My goodness, what would become of my NT dd if I simply let her be herself with no behaviour shaping"

I'm not criticising your parenting though. Just saying you can shape a lot of good behaviour/politeness simply by modelling it.

rentahoose, you are right that in the 60s/70s there wasn't so much use of star charts, and reward stickers etc.

but there also weren't many children being given a choice as to whether they would like to help tidy up/whatever chore.

I can't say I recall ever having a sticker chart. but I also had no choice in helping tidy up the living room/my bedroom/doing the washing up/etc.

'If my son wants to hand flap to calm himself down who is that actually hurting'

Well I really don't know about your Ds. But if my Ds was hand flapping at the edge of the kerb whilst I was trying to teach him a basic road safety lesson I'd want him to stop and pay attention.

'I'm not criticising your parenting though. Just saying you can shape a lot of good behaviour/politeness simply by modelling it.'

I don't disagree with that. Only I'd add that for a child to then copy and internalise that behaviour or model they'd have to see something in it for them. That might be parental approval or validation or perhaps feeling more grown up, who knows.

But children with ASD are rarely socially motivated, at least at the beginning until they have been taught explicitly the value of social reward.

Well good for you.
You clearly feel your way is the only way and nobody is allowed to disagree.

And people wonder why I don't go near the SN boards.

"So Rentahouse how would you teach an NT child that things have their own intrinsic rewards?"

I don't know. My DD seems to be proud of the pictures she draws, the writing she does. She was proud of riding her bike without stabilisers and told everyone.
I give her a lot of attention (which is positive reinforcement I suppose) but this is not particularly conditional.

"How would you then teach a child with ASD who is unmotivated by social acceptance or praise?"

No idea but I never said reward systems were wrong in the contexts of school. But would probably do more verbal affirmation and would hold back on the raisins/sweets

I have to say I would take a few hours of distress over not being able to eat solid food for life. Or being in nappies for life, or being unable to communicate.

There may be short term pain (figuratively speaking) but it's for a v v long term gain.

Being tube fed can hardly be a barrel of laughs

Gobby, the SN Boards are full of people who don't and never have done ABA.

What happens if he refuses the tube feed?

This is a great discussion but I'm afraid I have to get to bed. Now if you could get a toddler to stop waking at night with postive reinforcement, I might just give it a go.

What if verbal affirmations never had any affect?

That was what was so sad about Patience's son. He would clearly do anything for her. SO much potential.

Well some might suggest controlled crying for that as a behaviourist intervention, but me, I'm an attachment parent and would never do it. Good luck!

So you're assuming that because I don't practise ABA my kids are non verbal nappy wearing food refusers?

No they're not.

The Autism Spectrum is too huge for one approach to suit all.

I guess if I was in her/your situation, I would try anything- of course I would.

Did Patience refuse ABA? I think I missed part of her story.

No. I guess it was never clear how expensive it is to get the LA to fund ABA. It isn't obtainable for the average person. Most sell their houses and get into huge amounts of debt.

Ah you see I'm an AP parent too! so we do have something in common.

Breastfeed for years too (so that hardly fits in with societal expectations).

Good night all

I guess it makes good TV if you oversimply things by making it look as if ABA was "harsh but effective" and other options "soft but ineffective".
It was deliberately polarising - they could have shown was what a special school was like in the 1960s, for starters!
ABA is an incredibly effective teaching method, and it transformed our son's life. ABA expanded his horizons and allowed him to experience things that had been closed to him, and to eventually discover their intrinsic rewards.
We don't run a programme anymore, because he doesn't need it. He is learning well in a mainstream school, and he is an outgoing and happy child. He is also autistic, and that's a part of who he is, and a part of the person we love. We never wanted to "fix" him, we wanted to open up the world to him. That's your job as a parent, surely?

um, positive reinforcement (coupled with a sleep/wake clock and moving her in with her sister) stopped my dc2's extreme early rising. she was about 2.5 at the time, so you never know.

good luck! interrupted sleep is a killer.

I feel really, really uncomfortable with this notion that ABA is somehow 'denying' peoples' autism, which kept being brought up in the programme (by the anti-ABAers of course). Ime it is absolutely not about this. It is not a 'cure' for autism. It is a method, tailored to the exact needs and difficulties of each individual child, which teaches skills based on a really really simple principle (which starlight has explained clearly).

It doesn't take anything away. It adds to a child's skill base, their ability to communicate effectively, to interact, and to engage.

No of course stimming doesn't do any 'harm'. But it can interfere with a child accessing experiences. And when a stim causes harm to another person (eg headbanging/hitting someone) then what do you do? Accept it as part of a person's 'condition'? God. There is still such a low expectation from people with autism, that somehow by teaching skills it denies them to be the person they are.

I have no judgement whatsoever about how other people bring up, or teach, their children, but this thoughtless, ignorant stance against a method of expanding an autistic person's life experiences and skills drives me mad.

We have done 3 years of relatively intensive ABA (verbal behaviour method, exclusively done in the natural environment) with my ds. I have seen pretty much all of the sessions he has had. Not once was there cruelty or punishment. (Unless you would consider punishment to be him not being allowed to get sweets by hitting me.) The 'distress' he went through was no more than my NT dd goes through if she demands cake and I say no.

The endless clips of extreme 60s/70s methods (which I expect weren't even that representative at the time) were so damaging. I wonder what clips of 'special schools' of the same period would have looked like by comparison?

I have to say I would take a few hours of distress over not being able to eat solid food for life. Or being in nappies for life, or being unable to communicate.

I don't think anyone claims any of these things can be sorted in a few hours though.

I think ABA is among many methods that can help to a certain degree, depending on many factors. Some things would happen anyway because of the child's development or using different methods.

I don't believe it will make a child with autism NT, and in cases like the boy in Sweden I think he was probably misdiagnosed at 3.

Oh blimey, tons of x-posts

gobby I don't mean to come across that ABA is the only way, and hope that you aren't put off the SN board from fear of that. I only know that it worked so successfully for my ds, and I would just like it to be more widely and properly understood - at the moment it is presented as so extreme and controversial, when in reality it just isn't.

homsa puts it very well.

Of course I don't accept behaviours that cause harm. But I also don't use ABA.

Why do people not accept that there is more than one way?

Gobby, I do accept there is more than one way. Just what I said before, I just wish ABA was better understood, and not constantly presented as something extreme, harsh, controversial and somehow 'alternative'.

I didn't assume anything at all about your children Gobby.

For those at the severe end of the spectrum things like potty training, eating normally and communication are things that may never come without painstaking work. Acceptance and modelling behaviour will rarely cut it.

But if these things are achieved, the lives if these children are utterly transformed. And no child is going to be less happy because they have learned to communicate.

At other points on the spectrum issues are quite possibly very different.