Anyone watching The Midwives?

[Horsemad]

Feel sorry for that midwife trying to deal with the lady refusing medical intervention.

5mad I totally do not agree, after a certain time, babies are viable and do have rights, however you may not agree. It is midwives job to look after both mother and baby, before during and after birth. If that woman had refused treatment and the baby died, she could be prosecuted. So no women do not have total control

Yes it's her right to refuse treatment, but she has to live with the consequences of her actions, be it a custodial sentance and death of her baby. Not a nice thing at all, and of course midwives and doctors have to try and prevent that happening

Legally viable doh

I also think we have to remember its a tv show and that we only saw a tiny portion of what went on,it looked like she was in there on and off for days,we dont know what led her to be s adamant about it,she obviously didnt feel in control of the situation,and yes themidwife was very patient with her but that was only what we saw,and her baby was fine,we dont know if that would of been the case had it not been for the cs,but it could of been,we will never know.

Oops didn't pay enough attention she didn't have a previous stillbirth, but still a disturbing episode.

She has the right to say what happens to her body. We never saw if she was offered support and help to come to terms with her previous experience. She seemed terrified, she said she and her DD nearly died - whether that is accurate or not, if that was her perception she could easily have unresolved PTSD going into this pregnancy clouding all judgement. I suggest offering support to women after a bad experience and going into a repeat experience - one to one care, birth afterthoughts, named MWs, proper explanation of risks and benefits to all available options rather than the ubiquitous 'we're going to examine you now' bollocks that haunts this series and, I suspect, the profession as a whole. She should never have been so alone in a situation where her terror was allowed to make clinical decisions BUT nonetheless they are and always will be hers to make and only hers.

I felt deeply for her. I agree the narration was confusing, but I thought her baby died. I think the problem was that this was described as her second child, disregarding the stillbirth. I may though be wrong.

Absolutely - where were the specialist midwives with a connection to her? Why was she scared at every turn with dire warnings when she was already petrified, entrenching her even further? Did the infection arise because her waters had been broken - an intervention she had been opposed to?

But anyone with any tiny weeny bit of medical knowledge - just from reading 'mother and baby' perhaps, would know that IUGR is not just about 'having a little baby' and added to this.. leaving after induction has started without medical permission to do so is really not very sensible. Or am I being harsh?

Whether its sensible or not it is her right and legally in the UK the fetus has no rights.

There have been cases where drs have tried to go to court of get a fixed c section etc and they have been refused. They can only apply on the grounds that the mother is not in a fit mental state to make a rational choice.

The midwives and drs wouldn't be sued, they would make sure she was making an informed consent, you would have to sign to say you are making your choice against medical advice etc.

And a woman cannot be jailed in the UK for refusing medical assistance that would have saved her baby. In the USA yes you can, but you can also be arrested for buying alcohol when pregnant in some states.

Research the legal side of it, there was a case where a woman was actually falsely held and they were trying to get a court order to do a c section,the court of appeal upheld that try fetus has no legal rights and women have the right to bodily autonomy. This was in the UK and there is an aims report on it.

Morallya and ethically we may think the fetus has a rights and a woman has some sort of obligation towards the fetus but legally it has no rights until born.

As I said it may be unpalatable but that is how the law stands and is as it should be.

I agree with the law as it stands. I also agree with making it perfectly plain, without sugarcoating, the risks a pg woman takes in situations like this.

yes exactly anyfucker with ds3 i refused induction purely for going 'overdue' the consultant wrote in big letters in my notes "patient HAS been informed of the risk of STILLBIRTH and is REFUSING induction AGAINST medical advice" the capitals were as he wrote it. this was fine, he made me aware of my chouces though tried to refuse to allow me expectant management...a whole other issue! and i was free to make my own informed chouce but he was covered.

as it was ds3 was birn three weeks late, covered in vernix and showing no signs of being overdue and the midwife checked my placenta and said it was fine and showed no signs of degrading or being overdue.

we cannot refuse a womans right to autonomy, we may not feel comfortable with women putting the unbirn baby at risk but if we give rights to a fetus over and above the rights of a mothet we start on a very slipery slope.

indeed

It's very sad, it's something the woman has to live with for the rest of her life if she refused and her refusal meant that her baby died

5mad I disagree with your last paragraph, but this is a contentious issue. Surley as a mother you out your baby first, whether it's in or outside the womb. The baby cannot give consent and is totally dependent in its mother who might not always get it right

Piglet, the point is that if you start assigning rights to babies in utero, then that means that women are no longer able to be fully in control of their own bodies.

Whether or not you agreed with what the woman on last night's programme was doing, she had an absolute right to refuse any treatment, even if that refusal resulted in the death of the baby (or herself).

You might put your own baby first, and you might hope that other women would do the same, but you certainly can't force them to.

No you can't Aurora, f tat baby had died as a result of her actions, she has to live with that for the rest of her life

well obviously a woman would have to live with that for the rest of her life. no-one is saying she wont have to live with it, we are just pointing out that she has the right to make those choices and have bodily autonomy.

Lots of tricky pregnancy stories on this programme. Can't help being a bit shocked that so many young mothers to be are obviously overweight if not obese and so putting themselves and babies at risk and making huge demands on the staff and resources.