The White Queen

[ShadeofViolet]

Anyone else ridiculously excited?

I know Philippa Gregory's books tend to be a bit Barbara Cartland in places, and I hope the BBC havent increased it, but I still cannot wait to watch it.

She was married before Tudor, it was annulled due to her being under 12.

Henry IV died 20 years before they got married, but he was still Bedford's father. I was posting on the ap (hence the lack of caps) and trying to save myself texters thumb by posting short as my laptop has died.

I didn't say Woodville was anything noble though.

Some cross posts there.

I'm jealous, I'm hoping to do history in September and it's not what I would call history! Anything that has photos is not history (exception of Da Vinci's photo, but then that goes for anything Da Vinci!) but my husband says what I like is too modern to be history!

There is debate if Elizabeth was lady in waiting. There was a lady called Isabel Grey - Isabel is a corruption of Elizabeth and obviously Grey was her first married name - that some argue is Elizabeth. Jacquetta was a lady to Margaret, she was quite popular and second only to her in court. I don't know about Beaufort though.

Talking about how many degrees, there was rumours that Richard and Elizabeth of York were to marry but he denied these.

Ooh ... can I ask, how is Jacquetta related to Marie de Ste Pol, the one in the early fourteenth century who married Aymer de Valance? I know I can look it up but since you lot are here ...

Isabel is a translation of Elizabeth, I think - more usual in Latin documents that I've seen, though I wouldn't know for as late as this as I'm not looking at anything very formal. Might that be why it becomes a diminuative? There's a folk etymology they both come from 'Isis the Beautiful' (cf. Adhaf Soueif), but I don't know if it is true.

I didn't think Jasper Tudor sounded Geordie - but then I can't place it at all. I'm afraid I'm going for 'generic yokel accent', and if that's his natural accent I'll feel bad. It's just I've a feeling he's put on any old accent to stand for Welsh.

Gah. Diminutive

Ignore my spelling, it's only going to get worse.

I got some old fashioned books out and sat in the library and read up about the wars of the roses and the kings. trouble is I can't remember half of it but interesting family trees etc.

we could do with a starkey series.

found the Phillipa Gregory book about the Rivers? lady of so will have a read of that.

wonder if there are still people out there with the surname Plantaganet or has it been shortened to plant.

Oh, I can't stand Starkey!

But I know what you mean.

I would also love to know if anyone has plantagenet as a surname.

So, historical MNpedia, who was the French relative - the Duke of Burgundy (?) at the wedding who changed Warwick's France strategy?

And what was his France strategy?

Hmmm well if my name was Plantagenet I would most definitely have changed it in the reign of Henry VIII, because you wouldn't want to attract his attention as a possible claimant to the throne.

Well, it's really complicated at this point. The English crown owned territories in France, because basically 'France' with the borders it has now, didn't exist.

So it is to do with what influences people had, and where their lands were.

I remember France being like an extension of the Home Counties, and the "really complicated" should warn me not to go there yet

Henry Tudor was a half-nephew of King Henry VI. Henry Tudor's father, Edmund Tudor was the half-brother of Henry VI. Henry VI's mother, Catherine de Valois secretly married Owen Tudor after the death of Henry V, and bore him four children - Edmund, Earl of Richmond, Jasper, Earl of Pembroke, Owen (a monk at Westminster Abbey) and a daughter Jacinta.

Peter was 5 th generation descendant of Marie (3 greats?)

not sure who Warwick was talking to, which episode?

Isabel is a corruption, someone had the good idea of corrupting it to Isabeau... of course that didn't work out, but someone realised belle would be a better ending.

courgette maybe ep 2?
There was sulking at court by the French because Edward didn't marry the princess and then a hunting/falcon/birdy scene where the Burgundy chap was being wined and dined by the Riversseses.

Isabel Duchess of Clarence did give birth on board ship in much the same circumstances shown in the programme, in cramped conditions, attended by her mother and probably her sister. In the process of fight from the country, they weren't exactly normal circumstances in which the noblewoman was giving birth, and there was little opportunity for Anne to be protected from what was going on. I don't know how many female attendants were on board ship with them, but probably not many. In any case, Anne was shortly to be married herself.

I could be wrong, but I think it was the ship that posters thought was a bit Disney, not the plot.

The Welles, father and son, did foment rebellion against Edward IV at that time. I don't know where this was in the Philippa Gregory books, but there is some historical basis in fact, although not quite as portrayed here.

Yes, the ship was ridiculous. It shook more like the Starship Enterprise in an asteroid storm than a boat, it had that massive grating in the window which they made no attempt to cover, and the ceiling was bizarrely high - it certainly wasn't cramped.

Can you link?

If the TV series means Margaret's brother Wells, his father died at Towton in 1461. At this time John was 10 years old. He was part of a later rebellion in 1483, but by then his father was long dead. I'm sorry, I'm ignorant - which rebellion were they both participants in?

If it is John we are talking about, it is horrible if he was considered responsible at age 10/11, but not implausible.

I'm rewatching ep2 for you!

I think the man Warwick was taking to is Charles the Bold but I don't know much about him.

Welles is introduced as Margaret's half brother.