The White Queen

[ShadeofViolet]

Anyone else ridiculously excited?

I know Philippa Gregory's books tend to be a bit Barbara Cartland in places, and I hope the BBC havent increased it, but I still cannot wait to watch it.

Unmarried women definitely weren't allowed in the birthing chamber.

I agree with Saggy, I didn't find the sex bit implausible - it was the flaunting and the rudeness with which they flung the clothes rather than the sex itself.

AFAIK you were supposed to keep your smock on for sex though that doesn't necessarily mean everyone did, and maybe their nakedness would be shocking even if you were fairly familiar with sex.

Elizabeth Woodville's silly sleeveless nightie would probably have been shocking enough, tbh.

I think there are 2 different things here, sex taboos and nudity taboos.

I stand corrected! Thank you.

I already said that!

Yes but you weren't firm enough Saggy.

Nah, I just need to be told I'm wrong several times before it sinks in.

Didn't she give birth on the ship (I got distracted during that bit), maybe there weren't any midwives or other ladies around?
Imagine having a baby on a ship in a storm, I'd be massively seasick on top if it all.

In the TV they were trying to get into the harbour to find a midwife.

I have to admit, I found the bit where they hear the harbour chains going up properly spooky. I liked that.

Wouldn't they have made sure she was travelling with someone who knew what they were doing, though? Or was that mentioned?

In the book, IIRC they flee. The storm keeps them at sea for some time, (dont forget, sailing was a risky business back then, and getting trapped in a 'lee shore' in a storm could be fatal.) Edward somehow manages to reach Calais first. The baby is premature and transverse, so Anne has to try and turn it. Its a really unpleasant scene.

Warrick seemed a lot more concerned with getting away than with the safety of his pregnant daughter but maybe there wasn't a real choice there.

The consultant put one hand inside me when I had dd because she thought dd was looking up, not down and I might need forceps (and she was). I hope she's got over the swearing I subjected her to by now. I hadn't been aware I knew that many expletives

One of the main themes of The Kingmakers Daughter is that Warwick shows a total disregard for his daughters feelings and safety, and used them as pawns for his own ends. He marries one to York, and One to Lancaster!!

Yeah, the patriarchal kingmaking bastard!

He was covering all his bases, it seems.
I think I might have to start reading up on that era. I have The Sunne in Splendour on my Kindle, I start with that.

limited "Do not fret, my little muff" - I thought he said "moth"? Admittedly "My little moth" isn't much of a fatherly endearment either.

Gosh that episode was busy. They're defeated. They're rebelling. They're fleeing. He's defeated. He's won. I need a chess board to keep track of everyone, it fair skipped through.

Did Edward really kill MB's brother? We hardly saw him but he seemed to act out of conscience and I thought the poor lad deserved at least a goblet of wine by flickering candlelight and a chance to tell his tale before being filleted.

fiderer It could have been 'moth', I didn't have the subtitles up.

Seeing as I wage a constant battle against the clothes moth it seems even less affectionate to me.

I'm quite sure he said moth, too.

I mean 'more' affectionate.

He said Moth! Wash yer ears out!

Oh God, I don't know. But the mothballs I get aren't those stinky naptha ones but are very effective and change to white from orange when they've stopped working.

I recommend them to anyone who's ever been troubled by moths behind the arras.

I'm sure moths were even more of a problem than now, in horrible damp castles where everything was made out of wool or linen. Seems a funny sort of term of affection.
But then, he's a funny sort of dad.

Do you think so? At the risk of derailing a thread about an important televisual event I'm quite obsessed by moths and feel that central heating has a lot to answer for.

They never seemed to be a problem when I was living at my parents' and freezing to death every winter and most summers.

But then I never wore ermine back then

also when Magaret Beaufort was moaning at her husband for worrying about his neck etc. who can blame him. He just wants a quiet life.
Makes me wonder if she will murder him or he will be killed quite soon.

They're showing his as pretty sympathetic, aren't they? In a nasty, patriarchial, 'you, woman, are my property' kind of way.

I suppose I could get fed up about how that plays into stereotypes of 'poor long-suffering men with cheating wives', but hey ho.

I'm curious about the moths too. You know, it occurs to me, I've never seen a squished moth or spider in a manuscript. You'd think you would if they were that much all over the place. You get bits of straw and all sorts.