protecting our children

[thekidsrule]

carry on please

I thought the whole film incredibly sad.
Both Tiffany and Mike had obviously had sad childhoods themselves.
Mike was unwilling to accept any help, or even admit that he needed it. I felt for Tiffany, she really wanted to do the best for her DCs but she needed a full time back up, someone to mother all 3 of them. With that sort of help I expect she could have made it, but there isn't that sort of money available.
I think that she was very brave and did a wonderful thing.
I can't believe that anyone could criticise the social workers. They were so kind, even when Mike had the disastrous contact with Toby they found something positive.

some people who think toby and baby should be left with the parens at any cost seem to forget the child had physical signs of abuse,and you still think social workers needed to do more

and god knows what was going on behind closed doors

Toby needs stability now not in a few months/years when and if his mother can gain parenting skills. Adoption is the best option for him. Long term fostering is nearly as good.

Hully absolutely - intensive residential parenting interventions.

Tiger not trying to promote lengthening his suffering, but rather fixing the problem. Adoption doesn't fix the problem (people who lack parenting skills, symptom is neglected child), it addresses the symptom.

I agree in part with hully, but sometimes I think a new better start is far better for a child, to be brought up in a safer and more stable environment. It is sad for birth parent, like tiffany ,she did not set out to neglect her children, but I cant help but think a fresh start is better all round for the good of the children and the parents.

Exotic she did a wonderful thing????? ARE YOU KIDDING??????

I think that I was watching a different programme! The social workers almost fell over backward being kind and helpful.
That would have been one tiny part of the filming. Since Mike and Tiffany agreed to be filmed I think that they showed them in as good a light as possible-there was probably worse that we didn't see.

festi no, there is no justification for a fresh start. That doesn't make the problem go away.......it just doesn't.

Adoption is not a fresh start. Parents can (not always) suffer for the rest of their lives, kids can suffer (again, not always) for years emotionally

I ask you all again, what happens to any other children Tiff or Mike have? Has this fixed the problem? NO

You might think that festi but the family involved almost definitely don't and won't when old enough to judge. All the evidence points to children doing better with their parents even if support is needed to achieve that. The alternatives are frequently worse.

OneLieIn - But you cannot just simply fix the problem. The parents needed parenting themselves. We do not parent a child overnight - instead we do so over 18 years. It would take many years to help these parents - and that's if you even could help them to a point where they could parent sufficiently! Sometimes, they just don't have what it takes. The entire time you're helping, these children suffer and then likely to suffer further by being removed from their parents as older children. It would have been much, much better for Toby to have been adopted as a baby than to endure the suffering he has in that 3 1/2 years.

I still don't believe the program showed the full number of services that potentially were involved with this family because it came from a ss point of view so in some ways it doesnt give a full picture iyswim

The problem is far too complicated - and too far down the road - to fix perfectly. The parents needed to take responsibility for the situation rather than blaming everyone else. Having other people clean the house for them would not help this.

There is no easy fix.

It's taken Toby out of an abusive situation and prevented the baby from suffering the same. That's the important thing.

Oneliein, I have adult friends who were adopted and friends who now have adopted children - lots of happy endings for all concerned, with some sadness about what went before.

I understand where you're coming from, but just how long can you go on supporting people who don't want to be supported. Yes of course these parents will go onto have more children - to stop them would breach their human rights - but we can't use these kids as experiments to see how long it takes to help their useless parents.

No -I am not kidding-she should be so proud of herself.
DCs needs come first and she wasn't able to meet them.
I think that she was a good person, who loved her DCs, but she was unable to give them the care they needed. She needed mothering herself. She seemed alone, she had no one to mother her.
To have the DCs she needed someone to give practical and emotional backup-sadly she didn't have it, there is no money for it. Children's needs must come first.

OneLieIn you are making so much sense..I cannot understand how 90% of comments here -support SW making Tiffany feel so guilty about being a 'bad parent'

Long term foster care would have been far better outcome..letting mother see Toby and possibly gain enough confidence to take him back

tiger I am not saying that we can simply fix the problem. I recognise this is a long and difficult journey, but I do believe that with the right help, parenting can be learnt.

I absolutely don't buy , "they just don't have what it takes" because I don't think they were given the right support and learning for us to be certain of that.

I dont think it is a fix all and all will be rosey, no doubt without question tiffany will live with that all her remasining years, and toby but there are different levels of emotional suffering and one is surly less damaging than the other in some cases. The problem is the uniquness of every individual situation and there is little to be done sadly for dealing with circumstances uniquely. But for some continued contact is not an option for a reason.

Very interesting programme. I think the outcome was best for the 2 children. Since Baby P I think SS have quite rightly shifted their boundary of when to act to remove children.

All the talk of parenting skills - Mike & Tiffany didn't seem to know how to clean their flat. They couldn't look after themselves. Poor little Toby didn't stand a chance.

I dont think those parents were willing or able to learn how to parent with the urgency thatToby and his sister needed.

I agree entirely exoticfruits. It's a shame there weren't more out there who could put their childrens needs above their own in these circumstances. I understand why many can't - of course most of us want to keep our own children (some don't). This explains why her actions and ability to let go and give them a happier upbringing is something she should be proud of.

But the program didn't show many other services involved. It briefly showed the paediatrician but nothing else from health or education or sure start who would have had significant input I would have thought

i ask again to those that wanted toby to stay with his birth family,so the physical abuse that was stated is just to be forgotten about

and bugger the trauma longterm effects it will have on the parent as one poster stated

i recall baby ps mother having a bad childhood to,thank god tobys SW didnt read from the same book as baby p's

yes i do realise in baby p's case lots of agencies faile him

I think the cost to the child in order for the parents to learn how to parent Toby, in this case, would simply be too high.
That precious window he had to catch up would be gone for a start, plus the stress of a premature newborn in the house would escalate the pressure to boiling point.
If we are placing the parents needs first, of course in an ideal world they would have expensive interventions, etc but in this case (as in all child protection cases) the child's needs were placed first, and as a result they were placed in foster care.

Exactly exotic "To have the DCs she needed someone to give practical and emotional backup-sadly she didn't have it, there is no money for it. Children's needs must come first."

Agree, I think it is WRONG that there is no money for it, there should be money for it. We should have radical residential intervention to help situations like this. Adoption is not the answer.

Moss adoption can work out well and it also cannot. I know both. I know an older woman who to this day is crucified emotionally by having her dc adopted many years ago. It isn't a fairy story.