"Come quick. Sam's getting his ass kicked by a girl"

[BloooCowWonders]

Just rewatched of my all-time favourite WW episodes :)

And will watch again with dh so he can keep up.

Ginger get the popcorn.

I love the start of that one: "pleaseohplease let them not be watching...."

Aaron Sorkin did some excellent pre-credits teasers - my personal favorite is when Josh tries to hide from CJ in his office.

Oh, that's a good one!

Also CJ and Josh having a barney:
CJ: 'I will ram that computer so far up your ass ...'
Josh: 'Technically I outrank you.'
CJ: 'SO far up your ass!'

I love WW but when I was rewatching some recently, Sorkin's old-fashioned sexism really leapt out at me (WTF 'by a girl'??). So many plots about women losing their clothes, too.

DamnYou having been a complete wingnut for years, I have recently (I think since mn has awakened my feminist radar a bit) started to be a bit about the sexism.

Tis a shame because I otherwise adore the whole series (and most of Sorkin's work in general), but he does seem to have a bit of a problem with women .

Yup, it's a pain isn't it. He's so bloody brilliant otherwise. Recently watched 'Charlie Wilson's War', laughed like a drain throughout, hugely enjoyed it... credits roll, 'written by Aaron Sorkin'. The Social Network is brilliant too.

I do love Charlie Wilson's War, love Phil S-H's character Gust Avrokotos, and in a strange way I like that there's the sad inevitability of it all....'we'll see'.....then 'we just f*ed up the end game'. It's one of those why-we-are-where-we-are movies, where you realise that good intent at one time/place, does not translate to good things in the years to come or in other places.

D

Sorry went a bit deep there...

I love it when Toby, Josh and Donna miss the motorcade and are trying to get to the aeroplane

"I'm Toby, I work at the White House"
and
"We changed time zones?!" then Donna's tolerant "my guys are going to need a few minutes".

I love Donna. I don't care if it's sexist and she's stuck in a job she's too intelligent for, I want to be her.

But "girl" actually means someone from the specific catagory of "good-looking female wannabe tv-star spouting republican views" that Sam and the host are talking about en route to the set. I couldn't see Josh saying "Sam's getting beat by a girl" if it was CJ for example.

I also like the starter where Sam forgets to change the start of the trout-fishermans' speech when it rains.

"As I look out over this magnificent vista...."

I think in this context they're deliberately and consciously using the word 'girl' as part of a playground-type phrase that kids would use, the same way that one might say in a tongue-in-cheek way 'I can't come to the pub, it's a school night' when what you mean is a work night.

I watched all the WW series a gazillion times on ML and you can really see the difference between the Sorkin and non-Sorkin years -- I think the women fared so much better after he left!

Look at CJ, she goes from someone who can't understand the census because it's soooo complicated to chief of staff.

It wasn't really blatant, just lots of subtle digs, but it's really unfortunate as it's otherwise such a great show.

(I love the Thanksgiving eps -- CJ with the two turkeys, and the Butterball hotline one...)

yes Dreaming - Donna suddenly goes from all-purpose ditzy chick to serious political operator too.

it's weird because Sorkin writes brilliant, memorable parts for women; it's not like he hates them or thinks they're all thick. It's just a very subtle, consistent sort of undermining of his female characters IMO. And usually the young, attractive ones. Mrs Landingham and Abbie Bartlett are allowed to be clever.

Oh good point DamnYou

Nancy McNally is allowed to be clever too (I love her character actually)

Ainsley, of course, is mercilessly insulted. And Mandy just disappears with no explanation. (In the US for a while whenever a TV character disappeared they would say 'he's gone to Mandyville' )

Only just spotted your reply here dreaming , I love Nancy's character too, and although I was never a big fan of Kate, she was at least a clever female in an influential position.

I've been thinking about the Bechdel test (two named females, have a conversation, not about a man) for the WW, and so far a lot of episodes have failed. Not that the Bechdel is the be all and end all, more that it can be a little illuminating with programmes/movies that you might have thought were good to women, but in fact only have women in them as a foil to the men.

D

Oh I liked Kate actually, mostly because I liked the friendship that developed between her and CJ.

I think the last season must do better on the Bechdel test -- you have Kate and CJ stopping World War III together, all the women on the campaign staffs doing their thing. But you're right, the early seasons must be dreadful for this!

The sad thing is that WW is actually one of the better shows out there for women characters.

God, I miss The West Wing.
That's all.
I met someone the other day who has never seen it and I was STRICKEN with envy that they have seven series ahead of them.
Also, I could never love a man who didn't love this show.

DS2 is rewatching for the third time and he's only 13 - he's stuffed now really, isn't he?

Interesting re the change for the women in the series post-Sorkin - had never clocked the connection. But let's not be dismissive of CJ's intelligence throughout - the census thing was a bit of an aberration. As Press Secretary, she had a lot of men firmly under her control. She ruled.

Actually, my otherwise lovely DH does not like the West Wing! He can't deal with the walking conversations aspect (which is, really, a huge part of the show...) He'll try to watch but keep saying, why don't they stop walking and just talk? He finds it really agitating.

But, he says he totally understands why I love it

I lived in DC for aaaages so I find it comforting in that sense as well as good TV.

dreaming I think I didn't like the beginning of Kate, when she arrived in series 6 was it? Actually you're right in series 7 I liked her and like her friendship with CJ.

Hassledge life can only go downhill from now on if he's seen them all 3 times at 13!

Oh I don't mean to dismiss CJ's intelligence. But I think the device they used to explain policy issues to the audience having a character be totally ignorant about it and need it explained to them in the first couple series, it was generally Donna or CJ or Mandy who needed the super-smart men to explain things to them.

I think the census thing really bothered me because it's something we learn about in school, then you get the forms every ten years as an adult, and the idea that CJ could become as high-ranking as she was without knowing anything about the census was just too stupid to believe!

Delia -- I think Kate's beginnings were hampered by that godawful fringe she had to wear

Agree dreaming about the census, everybody knows what one is.

I was going to say in my post above, that I think I didn't like Kate cos of the fringe, but then thought it would be a bit hypocritical after my slightly pro-feminist stance above, to say I didn't like a woman because of how she looked!.... But yes, that fringe was a disaster of epic proportions.

Watched inauguration part 1 last night, I love that and the second epi, I especially love Will's meeting with the State Dpt guy, 'we're re-writing the foreign policy section' 'dramatically?' 'well, I like to think I have a certain flair'. Cracks me up.

D

Aw, I like Will! Not so much when he's working for the VP but when he first came on and in the last series, he's all geeky and funny.

'There's bicycles and goats in my office!'

Ahh, a new West Wing thread

"I accidentally slept with a prostitute."

"Did you trip?"

Just watched the filibuster episode again, God the writing! Oh, and Josh's new shoes.....:-)

Josh falls well . Bradley Whitford has a unique kind of physical grace in his acting. I also like it when he bumps into the huge football player and falls over.

I have been watching the episode I am currently named after. God, the writing, indeed NewGirl.