17 year old daughter has no friends

[Lowndes]

I am at my wits end and a total loss as to how to help my daughter, do we just give up and assume the world is against her.... because it feels that way. I would never say that to her, but I am struggling to manage or cope with her hurt and upset.

This is a long post, I am sorry, but it has also been a long term issue!

17 year old DD has always struggled with friendships. She didn't really find her 'crowd' at Primary school, although she had one close friend who unfortunately dumped DD in Y6 and then went on to bully DD, quite badly. To the point that when it came to secondary school, DD elected to go to a different school to the majority of her primary class mates.

Secondary school early years was up and down, but eventually DD found a small group of friends whom she remained close to until leaving in Y11. DD was only friends with this group though and said everyone else disliked her (this becomes relevant later on) The school had no 6th form so DD chose to go another local school with a 6th form.

She is now in Y13 and the two years at 6th form have been hell. On joining she made a group of friends, but she always felt they were never very interested in her and in Y12 they all turned on her (calling her nasty names), stopped talking to her / blocked her. She had absolutely no idea why this was.

DD found another friend, who had also been dropped by this group. Fast forward 6 months, this friend drops her out of the blue, wont talk to DD, tells everyone she hates DD. No one can understand why this is, including DD and her teachers. DD now has no friends at all and none of her peers speak to her. She says everyone hates her (theme here?) and is completely isolated. She spends every day at 6th form alone and no one talks to her. School say they cant understand it, DD is polite, kind and a nice girl and their answer was to have referred her for counselling with youth centre.

Things we have done in the last 2 years to help DD find friends and mix with people:

DD has been a horse rider since she was small. She saved for years to buy her own pony. We joined Pony Club in order to get involved in events and meet people, but 5 months in pony got injured and DD can no longer take part, so no more opportunity there.

DD got a part time job. She enjoyed the job and does well but no other young people there. So, she got a second part time job in a pub - she says no one talks to her and she does not know how to join in, they shut her out. She went alone to the work Christmas party and end up sitting with the 'mums' at their table as there were no seats on the 'younger ones' table and they said they couldn't add another chair.

In the last few months, DD volunteered at stables to help out and to try to meet some people. Finds the girls there very 'cliquey' and has made no friends. DD confidence now at rock bottom. I have to admit from what I have seen the girls are not particularly welcoming or nice to DD. I don't know why though.

We have been to the GP, to ask to be referred for ADHD or Autism assessment. GP said she does not meet the criteria and needs to be referred by SENDCo at school. School say DD does not meet the criteria and will not refer her.

DD has lost a lot of weight and I suspect some bulimia. We have asked GP for support with this and as blood tests came back normal GP says no current reason to refer any further, try to eat little and often.

This half term just gone, DD friends from secondary school (who all moved out of area after secondary school) all arranged to meet up in London. They did not invite DD, she found out through their social media posts. DD is devastated.

I honestly have no idea what to do next, or how to help her? DD has flat refused to apply for Uni - she cant bear the thought of being isolated again.

For context, DD has a younger brother who has a wide social circle, many friends and no problems, She, nor we, can understand why it is so difficult for her.

When DD was at Primary school her teacher said to me ' some children just get bullied and your DD is one of them'. This sticks in my mind. Is this it? Do we just accept that DD is one of those people and this is how she must go through life?!

Thank you if you have read this far!

She will naturally have no confidence left in herself and no belief in herself bless her , so it won’t take much for her to feel like someone else hates her when this won’t be the case . Is there any local theatre groups she could join that do plays or local musicals she could take part in in the chorus. Just a thought , to try and get some confidence back and meet people

Another one where this could have been me at your daughter's age. I have recently (age 32) had an ADHD diagnosis but I suspect I have traits of autism. Also coeliac which is interesting because I wasn't aware of the link.

Anyway a combination of me trying lots of different activities (I know your daughter has tried loads but it really took me a huge amount), growing confidence and just everyone around me getting more mature and from about age 18/19 I haven't really struggled and gradually grew into my own skin. Now I feel pretty able to make friends anywhere.

For me the key thing was probably finding that one initial activity where people seemed to randomly embrace me that gave me the confidence to make friends more easily at other new groups/situations.

No advice but from my experience it does get better with age. Moving out of a small town helped too.

I think "cold and detached" is how it appears to others. But of course it may not be what affects OP's daughter. To outsiders it may actually appear very similar to autism, quote:

There may be substantial difficulty in distinguishing Asperger syndrome (AS), sometimes called "schizoid disorder of childhood", from SzPD. But while AS is an autism spectrum disorder, SzPD is classified as a "schizophrenia-like" personality disorder. There is some overlap, as some people with autism also qualify for a diagnosis of schizotypal or schizoid PD. However, one of the distinguishing features of schizoid PD is a restricted affect and an impaired capacity for emotional experience and expression. Persons with AS are "hypo-mentalizers", i.e., they fail to recognize social cues such as verbal hints, body language and gesticulation, but those with schizophrenia-like personality disorders tend to be "hyper-mentalizers", overinterpreting such cues in a generally suspicious way.[169][170][171] Although they may have been socially isolated from childhood onward, most people with SzPD displayed well-adapted social behavior as children, along with apparently normal emotional function. SzPD also does not require impairments in nonverbal communication such as a lack of eye contact, unusual prosody or a pattern of restricted interests or repetitive behaviors.[172]

I agree with finding out a diagnosis. Also are there other social activities outside of school eg drama? That can be a great place for neurodiverse teens if you are lucky to find the right group. Also library groups, games groups, venture scouts, dungeons and dragons etc? So she can find social activities that are easy to attend?

Speaking from PE here too. No, uni wouldn't be a good idea at this point - they do have this image as places where people 'find their tribe' but the reality is that they can be incredibly cliquey and isolating. If she obtains good A levels now, they will always be valid - she can keep her options open, go later as a more mature student, or even study part-time locally. Sounds like she needs to be in the workplace, around adults - it's the best way of gaining confidence if you've struggled against the silliness and petty nastiness of teenage peers for years. Hopefully she will develop relationships with people she can connect to - I made a couple of good male friends working in an office setting. Have you tried searching for social groups dedicated to women and girls with an ASD/ND diagnosis or those who feel they meet the criteria - I know they do exist.

Agree it sounds as though there’s some ND going on here. It sounds very similar to my own DD and DS.

My kids have found connections with people who are older or younger than themselves outside of school. Is there an activity she could do that is amongst a wider age range? My DS plays a sport that adults and teens are mixed, so he finds he can fit in better. He never interacts or mixes with his own age there.

If she can build up some positive connections outside college it’ll help a little.

Is there anything she can do in college to fill her time, so that she’s not isolated at lunchtimes? My DS does ‘mentoring’ with boys in younger years.

Don’t give up, but look for other opportunities to boost her self confidence around people she can connect to easier.

You sound like a great Mum - you know your daughter well and are an invaluable listening ear for her. She is very lucky to have you.

I would second what someone else said - Google Rejection Sensitivity Disorder. It may or may not fit. I really hope things work out for her.

Your poor DD. I was dumped and bullied by my best friend in year 6 too. Have you thought of a niche hobby more for "misfits"? I can imagine pony club being cliquey. I went to a wedding of s couple who are very into LARPing (live action roleplay) and they had an absolutely huge group of friends there! The individuals very much seemed like misfits who might not click in random groups but together they seemed like such a happy and supportive community

She sounds like me at that age. I, in my late 40s, have recently been diagnosed ADHD. I didn't know how to fit in, I never did fit in, moving from friend group to friend group, I have no long term friends, I would sabotage friendships because I thought they didn't like me, I got extremely hurt when I didn't get invited and would think well that's because they don't like me, people think I'm weird, didn't get my humour, or the way I am. I would push for a referral, even if its just to get some clarity.

I do have some friends I see now and again, they all think I have a very dry sense of humour/sarcasm which I just go with now.

Could she go to some of the taster sessions at some Uni's, they will be very different people from all walks of life, it could be the making of her.

I have no experience with it, but maybe CBT would help her? (Perhaps someone with experience of it can comment?)

As regards hobbies: I think martial arts may be another hobby where people are generally quite supportive. What does she like, OP?

Solidarity. Very similar, teenage DD who struggles massively to make friends whilst my DS is hugely popular with a wide social circle. My DD has ASD, was originally diagnosed as Asperger’s but I know that term is not used now. It’s very painful to witness their hurt and confusion. I don’t have any answers unfortunately, your DD is doing everything ‘right’ and I bet she’s a lovely girl.

At her age, she’s vulnerable to predators and users - male & female. I know it’s hard but make sure you give her lots of social experiences- shopping trips, bowling, cinema, etc. We have to fill the social gap. I like to think these kids come into their own as adults, most people mature and there is less group think, than in adolescence. Sadly, I do think some people, through no fault of their own, get cast out of the group and ostracised. Humans can be very cruel. I hope your family unit provides a strong, supportive tribe for her.

She sounds very similar to me. I was diagnosed with autism/ADHD in my late 20s. I would push for assessment or look into private route as it can be so valuable for MH and understanding self to get a diagnosis.

I've had similar difficulties to your daughter, I was diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome which is now just known as Autistic Spectrum Disorder. High school was difficult for me, and even into my early twenties as I discovered dog agility, I was bullied mercilessly on the online forum for saying things that people would find slightly odd but it was harmless. I'm now 40 and I would say just in the last two to three years I have finally found some self confidence and I'm not bullied as much anymore on forums and facebook pages.

Your daughter sounds like me at that age. School was utterly miserable (I am on the spectrum and just didn't understand the rules).

Honestly life got much better for me when in uni I gave up trying to have female friends and just made friends with all the lads. Not hugely healthy but I learned to drink pints and banter and I found them much easier to navigate. I never really had female friendships until my 30s when I had kids and made mum friends.

So maybe that's the best advice. Give up on female friendships and find a way to get pally with lads.

There are bound to be local support groups for ADHD or autistic teens. My female friends now are all other people on the spectrum and we just click. Could you explore this?

If she's in year 13 she's on the home stretch and it'll be over soon enough. After results day I never saw the frenemies who had been awful to me at 6th form again. The greatest revenge on them has been making a huge success out of my life, traveling the world and being super happy whilst they are all living miserable lives.

I wonder if she could get some help from some form of coach on some tricks to help her penetrate groups and start up friendships. There does seem to be a theme with pub job and stables that she sees groups as cliquey and people don't include her. Of course the reality is that people do form cliques - it's completely natural - so the skill is how to penetrate them. Because in life she'll always be in situations where joining a new workplace or club, she'll have to start from scratch.

As an adult I had sessions with an actor where he taught me some basic tips and tactics for how to open conversations and get friendly. I realized these are things my neurotypical child and husband just do naturally, that had never occurred to me. Turns out my whole life my way of 'being friendly' or showing empathy to people came off quite badly. And that my expectation that groups would just include me were unrealistic. It's a shame it took me until I was old to learn. But the tips genuinely did / do work, these skills can be taught.

I'm going through this with my DS. He has had difficulties with friends all the way through primary and secondary. He got friendly with a lad in year 10 and finally I was relieved for him as it was such a huge worry for me. Everything was fine for the first year they were friends but then the lad turned on him and became very jealous and off hand with him. Couldnt believe it!
My other child on the other hand has always been social and has alot of friends and huge social life. Her close friend did something similar in year 11 and sent her a message out of the blue saying, "I no longer want to be friend"!!! We were devastated. There had been no argument or misunderstanding. Within a few weeks though she bounced back and made new friends. My son struggles so much to make new connections. I've just tried to encourage solo hobbies for him. Gym membership and he has had several part time jobs. I just hope that he will eventually find his people or a nice partner and he will have his day and be happy.

This is hard (heartbreaking, actually). My friends daughter is experiencing similar in school and was ostracized by her group of friends including her so-called 'bestie'.

Might your daughter consider becoming a young leader or helper at her local Scout group? Having been part of that locally for a few years, I found it to be an environment that was completely inclusive, and kind. And the young leaders were amazing with the little ones. We were supported in nipping any sign of bullying or exclusion in the bud instantly (it was only the few girls in the group that we had to have words with about bullying and they stopped as soon as we told them it would not be tolerated). I suggest Scouts rather than Brownies to be in a more mixed organisation. The outdoor stuff is great fun and good for keeping physically and mentally healthy.

Otherwise, I wonder about something like indoor climbing. That tends be be a very supportive community, too.

social communication disorder? Has he been assessed for autism?

Yes it was private and sourced myself through online research. It cost about £2000 overall and included an in school observation.

That is a huge amount to pay. I believe you could find one for much less. There were problems with other parent dismissing this hence I paid for bells and whistles ( the school observation) to reduce chance of further denial.

You don't need the GP or anyone to ok it. It's important the provider follows the NICE ADOS2 process of assessment. It is worth looking at recommendations and feedback on possible providers online.

Thank you, it is heartbreaking indeed.
We tried Young Leaders, but it didn’t go well, I just think the young people were all busy in their groups getting on with things, and she was too nervous to speak to anyone! She was in tears when I picked her up, of shame and embarrassment. Sadly the group leader did nothing to integrate her, which is sad as with a bit of ‘hand holding’ she probably would’ve got more involved.
It’s a shame as my son has had fantastic experiences all the way from Beavers up to now being in Explorers and he has gained so much from it. If you get the right fit it’s a wonderful organisation to be involved with.

It’s so hard isn’t it 😔. Solidarity to you.

1. definitely she needs an assessment
2. could you afford to pay for therapy/coacing from some one who specializes in adhd/autism to improve her confidence and friendship making skills?

my hear goes out to you both. This sounds very hard.

Does her brother go the same school does he have any insight? Do she have any cousins who are agemates?

Have you seen what any of her interactions are like with her peers to pinpoint what is actually happening or how she engages with new people?

Solidarity from me too! My dd (similar age) also struggles whilst her siblings have no issues. Sounds like you’re doing everything you can already but one other possible idea…there was a sport dd really liked but others at school made it a miserable experience for her there so I joined a local club with her and we played together… it made it a much ‘safer’ environment for her and meant I could keep an eye. She of course got better and moved up - she plays in a team mainly made up of adults now (early 20s to early 40s) and they are lovely to her. They may not be teens but it’s a great social environment for her and has made all the difference to her confidence. Though she’s really bright she has also shelved the idea of Uni - she has no intention of putting herself in that position (and paying for it). I think it’s probably a wise choice. Oh and is there any chance of taking another horse on loan or is it financially not viable?…All you can do is keep being there for her, it’s really tough 🌷.

My daughter used to struggle with friends so before high school we sent her to a therapist who taught her friendship making skills. The essence of this was for her to pick three children she wanted to be friends with and 'shine her light' on them. ie really focus on them.

My daughter was later diagnosed as auADHD - she is very good at masking so could communicate perfectly well with teachers but I suspect the children who she spent more time with were picking up on some quirky traits. She just finds social interaction exhausting so can only do it for so long and can't maintain it at the level the other girls do to build lasting friendships.

BUT, since my daughter technically has learnt skills to build friendships, in new environments she is able to ramp herself up for a few months to make new friends. There is a pattern though that her friends are also ND which is great as they then understand her more.

One thing I do think though is some christian / religious youth groups are a good place for ND kids to make friends as they are more inclusive in nature.