At breaking point with DS

[Monstersincq]

DS has always been a bit more intense and less easy going than his peers. Highly competitive and very very hard on himself. This often manifests itself as putting others down. I think he is really self conscious and makes himself feel better by taking down others. I think Ive made this worse but praising his intelligence and ability too much when he was young and now he defines himself by it so the stakes are high.

He has started being really really unkind to his siblings (including much much younger) and very recently being a bit physical (nothing huge but things like a deliberately too hard squeeze of the shoulder type thing). The put downs are often very very subtle and he does a lot of 'what? I was joking!' And acting as though the recipient is crazy to mind. After a lot of years of tolerance and trying to be his friend his siblings are now reacting back. He is relishing this and now goads them and enjoys pointing out their 'over reactions' to 'nothing'.

It feels very cruel and his siblings are suffering. Day to day but also I fear long term re self esteem. Lots of appearance and ability based comments, humiliating them in front of people etc.

I am not dealing it with it well, including times of totally losing my rag and bursting into tears. Both of which I know do not help at all.

But I have spent years and years being so calm, always talking kindly, never 'punishing', trying to see his side and always apologising for any of my missteps. I don't know what to do. We have a really fantastic relationship outside of this but it is starting to really be impacted.

I would be so grateful for some advice from other teen boy mums. I love him so much and I know this likely comes from a place of pain for him. I just don't know how to help.

What are the consequences for him when he is nasty to his siblings?

This is what I was coming on to ask.

No advice, as my boys are still young, but I think you're right to take this seriously and push back, and encourage his siblings to do the same. It sounds horribly reminiscent of a lot of stories I've read on here about people's nasty DH's.

My approach with my teen boy is to say it how it is. If I'm not happy with his behaviour, I call it out.

If I caught him being cruel or manipulative or playing the fake innocent, I'd make it clear that neither I nor anyone else was fooled by it. That he was earning a reputation for being a nasty spiteful person and he needed to stop and take a really good look at himself.

I wouldn't leave him alone with his siblings. And make it clear to him that it was because, despite being the eldest, he was the least trustworthy.

Then reward any good behaviour, to show him that changing brought rewards.

In answer to questions about consequences I essentially do what Meadowfinch has said. Im v firm about it being unacceptable behaviour. Im also very very positive about nice behaviour. But that doesnt seem to have much impact.

I’d sit him down and have a discussion about it. Not when he’s done something as a reaction but when you are both calm. Go somewhere neutral where his siblings won’t overhear. Explain what he does. Ask him why he does it and listen to him. Then explain abusive behaviours and going forward, what his loss of privileges will be when he displays these behaviours. Also get him some therapy.

Are there any actual consequences though? Eg removing wifi access, pocket money, phone etc? Then he gets them back once he improves his attitude?

This as well as talking him through his actions and how they impact other people.

I do a lot of talking through actions and impact. But a lot less of those types of consequences. Maybe I should start. I feel hes so stubborn that he will just feel annoyed and it wont have any impact. Very interested to hear more about positive results with this as maybe Ive been missing a trick with all the talking and listening and not action.

Consequences might actually contribute to this behaviour persisting. He feels bad about himself (presumably) and having that reinforced is a vicious cycle.

I'd try having a private, concerned conversation with him. Don't ask 'why' questions, ask him to explain how he feels and encourage him to see the impact it has. How would he feel to be on the receiving end? Is there anything external making him unhappy, anything he is worried about?

He may not open up to you, or may not immediately do so, but it's worth a try. It has worked for me with with my teens and the children I work with.

Thanks Onelifeonly. I do worry about this too and I generally take the approach that you have outlined. He's generally is quite open with me and talks about his feelings. But this doesnt seem to be working and this summer its really reached a head. Previously we would talk it through and he'd apologise and see my point. But he is being really resistant to conversations at the moment and doesn't engage. More of a 'yeah yeah ok' response.

What sort of age is he?

I see bursts of scorn from my eldest teen to one of her siblings and I hate it so much. It's also been going on for years. Like you i call it out in the moment and haven't been sure if that feedback has done anything. Over the past year I've found them actually laughing together about a few films and stuff and the scorn has reduced to eye rolling and more understandable objections to things like trips her sibling wants to do.

I guess with the age gap is quite hard to get to that point with your kids? Is there anything that he likes to do with them or are they just wholly annoying as far as he's concerned?

You say it's been going on for years? He's been slightly mean or cruel to his siblings for a long time? So it's not anything like a change in pressure at school that's prompted it? You say his siblings are much younger - did it start when they came along? Do they have the same dad?

What does he like? What is he good at? Does he have friends or does he act like this all the time with everyone?

I would look up growth mindset and talk about those phrases rather than the idea that ability is fixed.
talk to him about his identity and really listen when he admits he’s bad at things. Ask what he’s feeling - give him options, is it feeling left out, is it feeeling inferior etc.
see if you could get him and Elsa or a counsellor if he’ll go? As he’s expressing his ‘big feelings’ with his nasty behaviour so he needs to learn to cope better with them.
also having serious penalties for any aggression used in the house

I would go with natural consequences. If he can't be kind to his siblings then he can't be in the same space as them and has to go elsewhere or if you are out and it is possible to do so, bought home.

It sounds very entrenched and possibly complex family dynamics

Would you consider family therapy? I have a slightly different but some similarities situation with a very defiant teen boy

Ive read a lot and what i believe is that for some very oppositional children autonomy is more important than consequences.

So you simply cant punish some children and teens into better behaviour or different behaviour

Its then endless posts from parents with more compliant children who have never dealt with this

Ive recently made an appointment with a family counsellor to see if we can have some real changes

Eg I realise people are trying to be helpful.

But telling a high conflict seeking teen boy...who may be taller than his mother...to just not be in rhe same space as his siblings is not simple. Its inflammatory and leads to lots more conflict. What you need IDEALLY is to really change th3 dynamics and get the child to engage in connections and unearth what lies behind the cruel behaviour

Or. Is the child inherently cruel ? That would not be a nice conclusion but even that can be unpicked in the right circumstances

Teenagers switch their focus from family to peers.

many small and tween children are very focused on their parents and in general (there are exceptions) will change their behaviour to fit in with their family.

teens are starting to separate from their family and become a lot more interested in what their friends and the kids at school think. You can see this as they all want to have the same bags and clothes as everyone else and keep up with the cool kids (again, not everyone but most kids).

he is caring less about what you think and much more about what his peers think.

this is where you get the classic teen behaviour like “I hate you” “I’ll go out wearing what I want” and “the other kids are all doing it”. It’s a cliche for a reason.

teenage boys in particular do a lot of “banter”. I used to be a secondary teacher so I’ve seen a lot of it up close. It’s actually quite important for fitting in as a teen boy - but it’s not appropriate for him to do to smaller children or his siblings.

so you do need to clamp down on it. It’s unacceptable, and unfortunately at this age he won’t care so much about you just saying it. You need to impose actual consequences.

take his phone, or ban him from the X box. He needs to learn that it’s acceptable with his friends but NOT in the family.

How old is he? How old are his siblings?
is there anything they’ve got in common, activities they can do together? Music, sports teams they like? You mention more than one sibling so I wonder whether he feels a bit ‘me against them’ if the other siblings get on together. Obviously no excuse for verbal and physical unkindness, that needs clear consequences.

Really difficult & I don’t have a solution. My highly academic & competitive eldest son was exactly the same! Honestly you could be describing him. He still struggles with limits & boundaries but the good news is that as he’s grown older, & more confident in himself, & has his own established friend group, this behaviour has very much decreased - to the extent that he & his younger brothers now have shared activities & hang out together (something completely unimaginable 3 years ago).

I am not sure much can be done about this, beyond really trying to strengthen your own relationship with the younger children. But I think maturity will deal with a lot of it.

This is all so helpful thank you everyone. To answer some questions. Siblings are only much younger as there are three of them. 4 kids total. Ages range from 14 (oldest the one Im talking about) to 7 (youngest). Same dad, mum and dad both at home etc.

Agreed v much about that teen banter thing and levels of appropriateness with siblings.

He does have lots of friends but is starting to narrow it down a lot. Less willing to be part of a big crowd, meet up with just whoevers around etc. The siblings all are very sociable and find melging with a big group easy, so theres probably something in that as well.

Ive done a lot of growth mindset stuff with him as I think this is a lot of what its about for him.

For context, he does have plenty of good times with his siblings. Eg playing endless board games on holiday together, enjoying the same comedy series, being really really thoughtful about birthday gifts. Shares some interests, goes into 'town' with some of the older ones etc. I would generally describe us as a pretty close family. I appreciate that may be partially what this is about though, forging own path etc.

The other siblings squabble but seems to be much more a 'normal' bickering type thing.

I do need to find more ways for them to connect and be happy in each others company. But im not sure how to do that outside of what we are already doing.

Are you possibly setting too high expectations?

What you are describing - hours spent playing family games and time together as siblings - is a high bar! I have a 13 and 11 year old and they almost never do anything together (older boy and younger girl with v different interests/personalities) - I would consider what you describe to be 'walton family like levels of family integration!

Perhaps he isn't getting enough time on his own ?

I don't want to at all minimise cruel behaiour - I absolutely hate it when my 13 year old speaks rudely to his sister, it gives me triggering rage of mysogny etrc as well as the fact I hate him being unkind/bullying in tone.

BUT - if your son IS spending a lot of positive time with siblings, might it be that when he displays wind up behaviour he has just spent a lot of time with them?

I know this is not 'simple' or easy but perhaps just keep telling him - he is a good influence to them and they need to see him as a leader. that is what I tell my 13 year old when he tells his sister scornfully to 'shut up' when she talks. (absolutely grinds my gears and I tell him its unacceptable)

Perhaps more responsibility taking younger ones out? he might then develop more 'parental' type understanding of their age/ vulnerabliities over time?

so it sounds like there are no consequences to his bad behaviour.

you need to just call him out on being an arsehole. Also ask him if winding up little kids is the best he can do.

I agree. Your son lacks boundaries and you need to establish some.

I mean... its bullying behaviour, isnt it. I cant really dance around it. Have you had a conversation with him and gone through the behaviours individually and pointed out its bullying? Use the word, call it out sort of thing. Maybe asked him if he's treating kids at school that way? I just think he needs a bit of a wakeup call - have you got upset about it in front of him or has it been understanding and anger. Some people need more understanding etc, but some people really only benefit from a bit of a wakeup call, so its worth a try before going down other routes.

I don’t have amazingly great advice except to say that I grew up with a sibling like your son except it was a sister and she always got away with it by DARVOing and claiming that she was being victimised and I was “hypersensitive” we are in our 40s now and absolutely loathe each other. I know this upsets our DM but she completely mishandled it growing up by constantly brushing it under the carpet. I would suggest both you and your DH develop a zero tolerance approach to this and take him out the two of you and give him proper time with both parents who are on the same page and sending the same message. My Dad didn’t give a shit and that was part of the problem