What do you do when they won’t admit to something you know they did?

[Tacocatgoatcheesepizza]

I am absolutely gutted this morning.
I keep a stash of emergency cash in my jewellery box - there was about £70 there. It’s gone.
DS13 admitted straight away to taking £10 a little while ago but won’t admit he took any more. It obviously wasn’t me or dh, and our other ds is only 10 and this just wouldn’t even be on his radar. Even ds13 admits there’s not really another explanation for where it is, but continues to deny it was him.

He is diagnosed dyspraxic, has some sensory issues and is almost certainly somewhere on the autistic spectrum but we have not persued a diagnosis for this. He gets £5 pocket money a week which might sound like not very much but really he only needs to use it to buy himself a drink/snack if he’s out with his friends which is only a couple of times a month. We continue to buy everything else.

A couple of months ago he basically stopped eating breakfast and often won’t have tea, so if I had to hazard a guess, it has been spent on buying snacks to and from school.

i feel like I’m going mad - there is really no other possible answer, but what do you do if they just won’t admit it?

I think the chances of him admitting it now are very low now that he's doubled down. I'd leave it now and stop trying to get him to admit it. I think after he took it the first time you should have stopped keeping the money there as it sounds like he struggles with stuff which may include impulsive behaviour.

As a teacher, in this situation, and I have children deny things I have watched them do, is say, "we both know the truth and I am disappointed in what has happened. The consequences will be..." whatever makes sense. So in this case, you will not keep money where he can find it and you will not trust him to be alone in shops etc as he is not mature enough yet.

Let this sit, his conscience is still forming at this age and might take some time to kick in.

@StrawberryCranberry I didn’t know he’d taken £10 before, that’s just what he’s admitted to when I confronted him about the £70.

i feel like I should also just add that he is a GOOD boy - very high achieving and well behaved at school, receives awards etc. Has struggled to make friends in the past but currently has a nice little group. Has a tendency to get very emotional and upset over what most would perceive as minor issues or questions at home, and can also be very mean to his younger brother. But overall, he really is a good boy.

Do I punish him for taking £70? I am worried that if I don’t he will just learn that if he denies it he can get away with it. But equally, I cannot PROVE he took it, it’s just the only real possibility.

He also admitted there wasn’t really another sensible answer but then continued to say it wasn’t him.

You could give him an amnesty. Say that if he can be honest with you, the consequences will be less than if he continues to deny.

Explain to him that honesty is more important to you than the money (although obviously, you'll never leave cash around again, but you don't tell him that).

I did say that already @TheAmusedQuail, that he would be far better off telling the truth and I would be far happier, but he basically said I would be forcing him to lie and say he did it when he didn’t 😔

I'd stop speaking about it at all. If he did do it (and if there's no other explanation, such as one of you having moved the money and forgotten), then HE knows he did it, and he knows YOU know. I'd say something along the lines of 'well, I was going to take you to xxxxxx, but without the money, now I can't,' so he knows he's missing out on something as a consequence, but it's one that doesn't point the finger, if you see what I mean.

Move the money elsewhere, put it somewhere lockable if you must keep cash in the house, and keep an eye on 'friends' who visit, just in case. If he's generally a decent chap then this ought to be the end of it, but be aware that he might be being bullied into stealing.

If you are almost certain he did it, I’d say something along the lines of:

1. We all make mistakes when we are teenagers. It’s how we learn from them that matters. If you took the money, I forgive you but I would have more respect for you if you admitted what you had done rather than lie to me about it.

2. It’s a real shame that £70 has gone missing. I was going to put it towards (insert expensive trainers / cool bag / treat trip) you wanted and now I don’t think I’ll be able to afford it (even if you weren’t - this way there is a consequence to his actions, even if only in his mind)

Did you allow him the £10? He still needs to face the consequences, if only for the £10 he admits to.
I never made mine pay for chores, I don’t agree with it, but he needs to ‘pay’ somehow. I’m thinking giving back to the community type of payment. Do you have someone with an allotment that need watering? Or a garden? Give him a watering can and send him next door, not your own garden.

I’ve always had a cash stash in the house, DD is aware of it, knows she can use it for emergencies, think: can’t get hold of mum and I need to pay for a cab, there is no bread and nothing on the card and mum isn’t able to answer the phone etc. Sometimes she’d tell me: I’ve taken £35 for my nails, I needed cash, I’ll replace it. But I always kept it in the open.
I stopped giving mine pocket money at 14, she had to get a job.

Isn’t your second point lying? He’s old enough to understand what a cash stash is for. Look, it’s up to us as parents to teach them to budget, spend and save. Money isn’t an abstract notion we need to protect children from, we need to get down to the nitty gritty and teach them to earn and spend them.

I'm a believer in natural consequences where possible. I'd take the approach that somehow £70 is missing and needs to be replaced (without backing him into the yes you did- no I didn't corner). You'll have to replace the missing cash from other sources, so initially will need to cut his pocket money.
If he can discuss with you honestly why he needs money and why he took the cash then perhaps you could reconsider how to repay the £70, for example by paying his pocket money at a reduced rate for a while, or him doing extra chores to repay.

@Vroomfondleswaistcoat definitely no other explanation. I’ve kept money here for years - I don’t move it, and dh keeps his own stash (but in a safe!)

So, when I said there is £70 missing, he said he took £10 a little while ago from it which I had no idea about. I said to him can he honestly expect me to believe that he just took £10 from there and someone else has taken the rest of the money and he said no, he understands it’s the only solution but it wasn’t him. The thing is he is actually quite a good liar - it’s only usually little white lies, or often something that we know to be untrue eg him saying that me or dh said or did something which we did not. This also makes me anxious - he becomes very firmly entrenched in what he is saying, and really distressed if we keep on pushing that it is a lie.

AAAGH!

Firstly I would consider whether there is more to this. Why did he need £70? Has he got himself into a situation of some kind? Even good kids make mistakes and can find themselves in something they don't know how to get out of. Maybe he owes someone money, I don't know but it's a situation I would consider.

With this in mind I would not go crazy with punishment. Obviously don't keep money there again. I would be thinking about how he could pay you back.

I had this with my 13 DS I told him I was booking a lie detector test for the next day, showed him on my phone I was filling out the form (of course I wouldn’t actually take him was calling his bluff) and he panicked and admitted it.

he had spent it on the burger van on the way to school for him and his mates

Why are you so sure it couldnt have been the 10 year old? In my experience that is plenty old enough to do something like this. Although, I have to admit, if the 13 year old is admitting to £10 the chances are he is responsible for the whole lot.

I would follow the advice of @vroomfondleswaistcoat above.

So stop pushing. There's no point. He's not going to back down, he'll just keep lying. Stop talking about it at all. But you can mention in passing a few occasions where you can't afford to do something, or buy something or that the summer holiday activities will have to be restricted, because that's what the money was for.
There's no point in giving him direct consequences (as in taking money off him) because he will just think there's never any point in telling you the truth because he'll be punished anyway if you've decided in your head that he's guilty (even when you KNOW he must be). Just treat him slightly warily around money. He'll get the message if he did do it.

I wouldn't punish him for something you don't have evidence of as in you didn't see him take it. Especially with dyspraxia and other issues as there may be a tiny chance he didn't take it and as he is normally a good boy that would be disastrous.If you're wrong the hurt, anger and resentment at being punished for something he didn't do could send him off track as in what's the point in being good anyway? I would go down the sad and disappointed route this time and keep a careful watch for a while. Are you absolutely sure either you or DH haven't used it for something and forgotten about it? Also keep a quiet eye on younger brother for a while. Kids go through funny phases. Being bullied for money at school? Hiding it to get older brother in trouble? Also see how he himself is with his friends. Could the dynamics have changed. Someone bullying him for money? Stranger things have happened in families and it can take something like this to notice. 💐

At 13 with today's teenagers, he's very likely been buying vapes. That will reduce his appetite too. Have you thoroughly checked his room and belongings for evidence?

I would let this sit a while with him but make sure he knows that this is not the end of the matter.

I’d just say to him that trust is really important in a family, particularly with people you love.

And if he doesn’t admit to it, that casts suspicions on the whole family, including his little brother, and he is meant to be setting an example. (Make sure he knows that you have questioned his little brother about it too.)

And it’s very important that you are able to trust his word but even more than that, he mustn’t ever pretend to delude himself about the truth. He needs to be able to trust himself and his actions most of all, because that is what being an adult means.

So tell him calmly that he needs to go away and think about this very seriously.

Then say you will discuss this with him again next weekend because it’s important to you that you know where that amount of money has gone. You can’t ignore the loss of £70 as it is hard earned money.

As a teen his impulsivity is already high and if he is ND , then that could affect him in a way that makes him more susceptible to his impulses, more likely to say the first thing that comes in to his head, or indeed steal the money or buy the snacks in the first place, so I would give him a little leeway.

But say that this matter is not over and obviously if you can’t trust him to tell the truth, then there will be natural consequences to that because the more trust there is between you, the more freedom he can have. But if you can’t trust his word, then you may not trust his word about other things, such as how long he will be out with his friend or how long he will spend gaming etc.

Just let him stew and ponder a bit without any pressure and set a specific meeting time to discuss it, say next Saturday at 2 pm, to show you are serious and to focus his mind, but obviously he can come and have a private word with you or his dad any time leading up to that point.

I am thinking to either say he can choose to pay me back in full out if his birthday money in September, or for me not to put any money on his school account for snacks for 3 months. But again, I just hate the feeling that I cannot prove that he took it even if I know deep down that he did.

I know you can never know exactly what is going on in a teenagers life - he has been bullied before in his old school and it was very obvious in his behaviour. He started high school last sept and seems to have settled in incredibly well. He doesn’t have friends over to our house (his choice - he prefers to meet up in town and that’s only every few weeks) He does seem to like buying snacks or drinks for his friends but we have had words about this already and I am keeping an eye on it - as a teenager I found myself buying things for people to try and make friends so I am well aware of the possibility there.

Is it reasonable to punish him over the full £70 or should I be treating it as £10? Like I said, I am so worried about teaching him that if he denies something he can get away with it.

ex secondary teacher.

this is very common.

my school has cctv in various places and a very common conversation with students goes along the lines of

“I’m very disappointed in you, you said you weren’t involved in this fight but the cctv clearly shows you hitting child X”.

obviously it was him. He knows it, you know it.

he isn’t going to admit it though.

going forward:

clearly he’s prepared to steal from you. If you want to continue to keep cash in the house invest in a little lockbox like charities and small businesses use. They’re about eight quid on Amazon.

dg this one.

https://amzn.eu/d/bY1t13a

so then he can’t steal from you.

then, look into food. Teens need a massive amount of food. Is he simply eating crap for the sake of it or is he actually hungry? If he’s genuinely hungry more then consider addressing that

Ds10 doesn’t really spend his pocket money/birthday money and has quite a lot in his bank account to spend as he pleases, whereas ds13 tends to spend money and leave himself with next to nothing. Plus ds10 would have no opportunity to spend it without an adult there.

I think the problem is unless you have seen him take it. Or have video evidence you actually don't know if it was him.

My husband is always accusing the kids of taking things. But then he'll find the thing he lost- exactly where he put it.

There are other explanations as to where the money could have gone.

I don't think you can say 100% it was him.

I used to say, 'I'm going to ask you again. Don't tell me, but tell yourself, honestly, did you [whatever I was pretty sure they'd done]. I can tell you don't want to admit it yo me but you can't lie to yourself.'

Then I'd ask, and look at their faces and could tell from their expression. Then say, I can tell you did, so please can we chat about shy? What did you need or want the money for?' Wait for an answer before asking another question like, 'Why did you not feel able to ask me for more money?' 'What do you think I should do now? What would you do if I stole from you?' I always kept my voice very calm while asking tough questions and not hiving up on getting an answer.