How much more can I help 17 year old? Carrot or the stick I suppose.

[LeylaOfCircassia]

17 year old is a nice kid, has a great group of friends, and like a lot of teens they are his main focus.

His GCSEs did not go as planned (all 4s) which meant he couldn't do A levels (did zero revision, so I would say he is capable and could have got a raft of 5-6s with revision)/ A lot of messing about with college who intimated he was on a BTEC Level 3 (repeatedly referred to in emails by me) but it transpired it was a BTEC Certificate, so equivalent to 1 A level. They said he could do an A level if he did an assignment that proved he was up to it, he did it, the teacher said yes and he was so pleased, even though it was only one (alongside BTEC), then radio silence and then they said no. He was deeply unhappy, where we were worried about him and he ended up dropping out.

He was given alternatives that would be a second chance before we agreed for him to leave. Get a job, go back in Sept for a level 2/3, or he could distance study for A levels with an online provider - it was made clear that this would be the far far harder option but that we would get a tutor for each subject once a month until year 13 and I would be on hand to help (not a teacher, but with organisation, revision etc).

He opted for the A levels and I have been very on it, trying to test him, making him revision cards and being available to use them. We have visited some unis (yes, i know none of this sounds like uni material, but he wanted to visit and each time we do he steps up the work). He now is refusing a tutor. He makes notes, but then never revisits the material. He does the minimum e.g. read the course materials and make some notes. When I asked him a basic 1 marker from an exam paper he couldn't do it. He is struggling with no peers, though he tries to mirror his friends timetables to hang out in breaks, and no actual teacher - there is a tutor but they are 'available' office hours and it is on you to reach out.

He has now done no work for over 10 days. On Wedn last week I took him for lunch, to try to talk to him in a calm space and I laid out the options.

1. if he wants to finish these A levels with decent grades (we are saying BBB-CCC here) it would be better to have them than not have them for whatever the next step is, plus I am paying for them. BUT, at this stage he will need to follow my rules and what I say to the letter and we will get through together.
2. if he quits (again), he gets a job until Sept and goes back for level 2/3 Btec in a classroom.
3. he stops and applies for an apprenticeship (I have found 17 locally in different spaces). He won't look at them.
4. he stops and tries for the army/navy/RAF or even a firefighter - I am at the stage of believing the 'born in X, made in the navy' ads. This isn't what I would like for him, but would support him if he wanted this.
5. He will only apply online for jobs and not go into places so has been unsuccessful for even a part time role.
6. Get a job and look at an Access Course at 19 if he is still interested (I went to uni as a mature student and it was the best thing)

He has no idea what he wants to do, or currently any abstract ambition e.g. make money, make a difference - just nothing.

Over lunch he sat with his head down the whole time and did not engage at all. I said he could think it over until the weekend and then would need to make a decision. Today, he is still in bed, yesterday I suggested he type up his notes and annotate them and then we can see what we have - he did nothing.

I've seen lots of comments on here around teens not pulling their weight etc where posters have said 'I simply wouldn't allow that', but how can I make him actually get out of bed and do something. How?

When asked, he does do chores, he goes to the gym with his dad a few nights a week and plays for a football team. I do think he is a little depressed but he wont accept my offer of counselling either from a careers perspective or a wider perspective.

DH thinks we need tough love now, but he has been caught smoking in the house a few times and this resulted in being grounded by DH for a bit and that just seems to set him back with the studies, he retreats back into himself and gets out of habit.

The only things we can do are:

• remove his pocket money (£50 per month) and give him money to travel to football but no more
• ground him - seems punitive, especially as being away from peers is one of the issues
• will give him more chores etc but that doesnt really help with everything else

I don't feel that we can just wait it out whilst he finds himself. Tough love results in him cocooning even more, the carrot he ignores.

Oh dear so hard. I personally wouldn't punish or ground him. He is still young and sounds disorganised and down. Adhd ???

Is there a way to remove pressure. It sounds staggeringly unlikely he will get 3 a levels and I wonder if he needs a short break without pressure and you explain that uni etc can all happen later. It feels like a very long list of possible choices even my head would spin

Honestly I think that he has taken the hardest path doing A levels on his own and unless very motivated he will continue to struggle. He obviously wants to achieve but this is setting him up for another failure really. I would step back, perhaps suggest he gets a part time job and restart in September. He does have time and many at this age change tack. Army etc might be an option and if he is interested he could join the reserves at 18 to see if he likes it.

You can take or leave this advice but I think your dh is right and you need to show some tough love but not it in the way you think.
You need to start treating like an adult. Grounding is IMHO a punishment for a 12 year old., not a 17 year old. He is very nearly an adult but you seem stuck in a child like dynamic with him. Cagoling him into work and then rewarding him, punishing him when he fucks up. He is quite obviously fucking up but he needs to really feel it himself. So no bailing him out with tutors. He doesnt so the work he's going to fail and yes that is shit
I would back right off.
He sounds like still enjoys football. That's a positive. If you give him an allowance that's fine but a job and financial independence may help. No smoking in the house... Because no adults are allowed to smoke in the house. He'll need to help out in the house because all members of the family do.
And when he inevitably fails his a levels ask him what his plans are. Don't research for him. He needs to do it himself but staying in bed and doing nothing is not an option. It may take him a while to work it out, and a few false starts
Best of luck

He has been doing these since Jan, and every few weeks he stops for two weeks. Objectively, I know he picked the harder path and I will honestly do anything and everything I can to help him, but I can't if he won't even get up and go to the desk. He has no purpose to his days, I even suggested he could come into my office - lovely, barista on tap and just take a place in the cafe and work and I can check in with him every hour or so, to help get him back on track.

I do agree he is overwhelmed and is finding it hard so burying his head. I have made it clear that uni is not the answer for everyone - but getting a qualification in something at this stage whether A level or BTEC is only going to help with whatever comes next. He is galvanised by the uni visits, but I do think he maybe will return to that later as I did.

But surely, he cannot just do nothing all day, every day. He won't go out and hand out the CV, only online, and even then with me sitting with him. Maybe the answer is he becomes our 'homemaker' for a bit - we both work full time so he cooks, cleans, washes the clothes etc whilst he works it out.

@Stickortwister What you say makes sense. I feel an enormous amount of gilt over the GCSEs because whilst I encouraged, provided resources and time, I did leave him to it. The devastation he felt on results day and the last 6-9 months have been awful and so up and down, I am now overcompensating.

But, how can I make him get a job. We keep applying online and he just gets rejected.

I absolutely agree about the punishments, they are not mine, but DH and he reasons my way isnt working (a bit of a cultural thing, which doesnt help).

I have pointed out to him that a job and driving licence (he and my nearly retired mum are going to share the car) will revolutionise his independence.

My parents were very strict, far stricter than this (think 6pm curfew at 17) and once I had a part time job they just backed off completely.

Very very few teens have the motivation and organisation to self study a levels.

even those that are academically up to it, and honestly with mostly grade 4s at gcse this is not the kind of academic profile that says he is academically capable of a levels.

most sixth forms want 6s or even 7s to move on to a levels.

this isn’t the right choice for him, and it sounds like he is realising this.

my DD tried to self study a levels as she was too ill to attend school. It’s very very difficult.

I’m inclined to agree with @Stickortwister
He needs to try on working self-supporting adulthood now if education is not his bag - and see if that suits him better.

I wouldn’t be paying him £200 a month and a gym membership if this was going on. But that’s just my way. Before we got there - I would tell him I realise he is down and want to help him and ask if a counsellor/advisor would help him decide where he wants to go? And offer and pay for that.

That way of doing A-levels is nigh impossible, he’s setting himself up to fail again and that will bash his confidence again - and it sounds like he is isolated as it is.

He has a small window of opportunity to catch up with his mates if that’s what he wants.

We both know that but supported him in what he chose. For the record, I got Bs and mostly Cs and have two degrees and a partially finished PhD thesis, but like I said I returned later.

I do think 4s with NO revision whatsoever, means he absolutely could have achieved 6s with the work - the work ethic is what he seems to struggle with (accepting that he chose the absolute hardest path here).

He is the middle child between a high achiever (who worked very hard, doesn't just wake up a high achiever) and a younger sibling who hates school and is middling but has plans (he is motivated by money and has a plan of how to achieve his goal). This is prob hard for him, though no one compares them at home, he has mentioned teachers often have, but he gave up a lot of things that gave him pleasure like an instrument he loved (I have suggested taking it back up) as it just crushes me to see him so unhappy. I know that is about me.

Sorry, I give him £50 a month - not a week. He would never do anything again for £200 a month.

Maybe insisting he runs the house is the way for now. Gives him something to do, allows him to still see his mates etc, and we aim for something new in Sept back in a college environment.

Have suggested to DH we give him a list of things that need doing each day and say back to college in Sept and leave it at that for the moment.

Expecting a child who got 4s at GCSE to self study A-levels was unrealistic. A-levels are aimed at students who achieve 6/7+ and if he was going to do a level 3 qualification then it should have been BTEC or similar. Tbh I would not have had him start a level 3 course without some ideas from him about what to study. I would have taken him to a college and registered him in a level 2 course which is short but might ignite some interest and passion before he started level 3.

Careers help at school is usually not geared to kids who don’t go to uni so I understand if it’s put him off careers advisors. My son went from school to college and I really had to push him to change his opinion of careers advisors. The people there know about working in the industry that he’d like to work in and have links to businesses for work /work experience so he should take advantage of their knowledge.

Grounding him from seeing friends is pretty pointless unless the reason he’s still in bed is because he was out all night. His friends getting jobs and qualifications and talking about it is surely a sort of motivation that’s more powerful than his parents nagging him because his friends opinions matter.

I don’t think that many companies accept walk ins with cvs any more. I’ve seen the odd company with a sign in the window but online recruitment is common. Have you considered getting him to volunteer? It gives him a reason to get out of bed and will hopefully help to make him more confident so that the thought of locating a manager in the shop and chatting about the possibility of work isn’t so daunting. Confidence will help him feel better in general and make him more appealing for work.

Your idea about driving lessons seem reasonable too. It’s a life skill and could help him feel more motivated about life in general if his confidence is boosted. A lesson early in the day will force him out of bed too.

My local college is starting to have open days for September. I would take your son so that he can start thinking.

The sixth form were just so unhelpful so he ended up on the Level 1 Certificate instead of a Level 2, he honestly went to the school (he was at another site) every other day to locate the various teachers and get moved to a Level 2 or 3 and they kept asking him to do this or that, he would do it and then they said no or just ghosted him. The course he was doing was geared to people with 1s. This went on until Christmas, him jumping through hoops and then being told no.

I think we will go back to the college situation and leave him a list each day of a few things he can do.

I think he partly struggled with the courses because (a) his friends are all doing A levels - not the right reason, I know; (b) because his actual interests lie in subjects that are not covered by BTEC or T Levels near us (largely music and humanities, music he didnt take for GCSE and always played for fun so no grades and humanities just aren't covered).

But he is where he is.

You need to stop spoon feeding him. I know none of us want our children to fail but by bailing him out all the time is not helping.

The only person getting stressed is you, he clearly doesn't care. Let him get on with it and face the consequences with his tutors etc.

I'd stop his allowance, stop treats, lifts etc and tell him this is real life when you have no job or qualifications.

Poor kid. He struggled with self motivation to study for his GCSEs and now he is trying to self study for A levels, which takes a level of self motivation, discipline and determination that most sixth formers don’t have. I don’t blame you for suggesting it but he has been pretty much set up to fail.

It is probably too late now for this year but it might have been better to retake GCSE maths, English and the subjects he wants to study at A level, possibly plus any subjects that would be an easy high grade for him.

I think you need to talk to him about this not working and accept some responsibility for the situation. Find out what he wants to do on the future so you can support him. If he wants to leave education, fair enough that you insist he works if he lives at home.

I would get some good careers advice to explore what he would like to do. Could you afford a private assessment that includes aptitude tests to see where his strengths lie as well as exploring what he likes? If he has some potential careers in mind, it will be easier to plan his next step.

As well as your suggestions, I would consider retaking GCSEs (he may need higher grades if he wants to go to university). Then A levels or a BTEC at college or an Access course. It really depends on what he decides he wants to do in the future though. Sort that first.

You’re (admirably) doing all the work for him. I think it’s reasonable to stop giving him money if he lays in bed all day, surely that will motivate him to get a job? If not in education then he needs to get a job, either part time whilst looking for something a bit more substantial or full time and contributes to the house hold (save this for him if you don’t need the cash).

I do agree, 17 is young to know how they want to map out the rest of their life. However where is his sense of self worth coming from is his parents are funding him doing absolutely nothing? It’s a shame things didn’t pan out with the courses he wanted to do, but life doesn’t go how we want sometimes and we have to move on to plan B, C or D. He’s a young adult now and needs to understand the consequences of his actions. Not in a harsh way, just in a ‘you’re becoming an adult’ way.

For what it’s worth, you sound like a really good Mum. But don’t be so great he doesn’t need to be great himself!

I once heard this suggestion and I don’t know if this would work.

Sit him down and ask him where he sees him self in 5 years time.

He probably hasn’t thought it through, but most likely he doesn’t see himself still living at home. If he wants to live independently, he needs to think through how he makes the money to do this.

He may have vague ideas that he wants to travel, live independently in a swanky city flat, go to uni, be an eco warrior, or save the world. But they all need a plan, motivation, action and money.

I think it’s unlikely he wants to stay living in his teenage bedroom on £50 when most of his friends leave home and move away. Maybe he needs to know what he doesn’t want before he does anything.

My nephew was exactly like this, we really never thought he would amount to much.

10 years later he has a well paid niche job, girlfriend and they are buying their own house.

This was me. I under performed in GCSCs but got enough to try for A Levels. Ploughed my first year and got told by my Dad to study or he wouldn't support me. Scraped a resit with useless grades in useless subject.

However, all is not lost. I didn't know how study at that age. I'd never learnt and wanted to be with my mates. I joined the Army. After a few years I transferred to a role where I got a Uni qualification. I've left the Army but have 2 degrees, a masters, other uni level courses, a great well paid career and a good life.

Maybe he needs to go have a bit of life first before he settles down to study. It was the various jobs I did both before and during my Army career that prepped me to study, not school.

Nows a good time to start hunting for a suitable apprenticeship

Take the pressure off him completely, so that he can break this cycle of expectation. If he struggled with GCSE’s, A levels will be too much.

Punishment is ridiculous. He needs to have breathing space and therapy - someone impartial who can help him identify where his strengths lie, and how to focus on playing to those strengths. In the meantime, if he goes to the Jobcentre, there will be opportunities for him. My eldest has just joined the Civil Service as a result of a Jobcentre placement.

My DS did zero study for GCSE’s, failed his BTEC and 2 A levels. Has miraculously got a job doing IT / data analysis. I was trying to help him like you are but backed off and he found a job himself from linked in. At 22 he now earns £38k a year working from home in his dressing gown and is just buying a 3 bedroom house (shared ownership). I couldn’t believe it but it can be done.

That does make me feel better.

Stop giving him pocket money and paying for everything else, including clothes and holidays. There are a lot of people on here in full time employment who don't end up with £50 in their pocket. He needs to get his motivation from somewhere. The obvious answer is a job, any job, as he's not going to make uni at the current time Maybe after a year or two at the coalface he might see the value in studying.