Advice re 14 year old DD

[Estraya]

I'm at my wit's end with my dd and just don't know what the right path forward is so I'm hoping for some advice from parents who've survived the teen years.

There's a long backstory but the current situation is I'm a single parent 100% of the time to my dd (14) and son (13). For the last 6 months or so my dd has been pretty unpleasant.

• She's moody and nasty to her brother and me all the time unless she's getting exactly what she wants and then she's all sweetness and light.
• She takes things that don't belong to her (from me, not stealing from shops or anywhere else) and lies continually (again to me, not aware of her doing this anywhere else but who know?)
• She's coasting in school getting lower grades than I think she's capable of but the school think she's doing fine because she's quiet and well behaved.
• She leaves a trail of mess everywhere she goes and again lies and says it wasn't her.
• She frequently smells because she doesn't change her sanitary protection often enough and has really bad BO after a day at school. I've tried buying her a good antiperspirant deodorant and talking to her nicely about it but she ignores me so now I'm blunt and send her to shower and change whenever she stinks.
• The smell from her room got so bad recently I went in and found she was hiding rotting food (her packed lunches from school are not getting eaten) and shit stained underwear all over the place. She used to have chronic constipation when younger and this was an issue then but she swears blind it's not the case now and says she won't take meds or go to the GP about it. She eventually said she was scared to go downstairs to the toilet at night as it was creepy and so she was having accidents from trying to hold it in. I don't know whether to believe this or not, as everything is lies with her. Either way, it's not ok.

I could go on all day. It just feels like everything is a battle with her and it's really wearing me down. I don't know where I've gone wrong. She's currently grounded and I've taken her phone and computer away from her as that's one of the only consequences she cares about. I've said she needs to make some serious changes to her behaviour before she'll be earning them back but it doesn't seem to be working this time. Everyday she does something wrong or I find out about something she's done wrong recently but was hiding/lying about.

I'm starting to question whether she needs some mental health help. She had some play therapy when she was primary age and has spoken to the school counsellor a couple of times in secondary, but she says nothing is wrong now. This was relating to a specific issue in the family rather than general behaviour. There's a family history of neurodivergence and bipolar disorder and some of her behaviour reminds me of the family member on my side with those issues when she was a teenager, but then again so much of this behaviour could just be normal teen issues. I don't know what to do and if she won't engage with any assessment/help then there's nothing I can do. I'd be really grateful if anyone has any advice?

It sounds like some therapy might help her OP, sounds like a really tough situation and you’re right to seek advice xx

How is her eating at home? Is she eating normal amounts at dinner + does she help herself to snacks? What sort of things is she stealing? I'd worry about laxative abuse due to disordered eating with the underwear + lack of lunch getting eaten, but that might be jumping to too much of a conclusion (DN is currently getting help for this so it's on my mind at the moment!)

She's a fussy eater at home but she does eat plenty - just whinges and argues about eating anything that's not her favourite. She told me she was worried about her legs being fat and that her friends don't eat lunch at school but I found out today she spent all her savings buying sweets and junk in the last two weeks so I think she's lying about the body image issues to try and get out of trouble. I think she's just filling up on rubbish instead. I don't think it could be laxative abuse as I would have found evidence of her buying them. She has a perfect figure and has never had any problems with her weight.

How do I get her to engage with help? She says she won't speak to the counsellor at school and gets really angry when I say I'm going to have to speak to school about her issues.

I would give the girl her stuff back, unground her and try and engage with her as a human being rather than punish, punish punish and trying to make her into a better person.

With teenagers, I have found that punishing rarely works, it just makes them stubborn and they back off.

I'd sit down and have a grown up chat with her. Explain how her behaviour is impacting you and her brother, but also that you are worried about her and you want to help. To me, she sounds depressed (the lack of self care, lack of effort at school) but some of it does sound like normal teen behaviour (the mood swings were awful with my eldest!). It could also be another underlying cause, as you've said neurodivergence/mental health issues run in the family.
In terms of seeking help for her, I'd try to give her some sense of choice, eg: would you prefer me to contact the school counsellor, or would you prefer to talk to someone outside of school? It would only be for X amount of sessions at first, so you can give it a try and we can see how it makes you feel/if it helps you. If not we can re-evaluate after those sessions are over.

Outside of that, does she have any particular hobbies? That might be worth looking into, to help redirect focus/give her something to focus on outside of school/let off some steam and to meet new people. My DD started a drama club after a long series of mental health struggles and it gave her an outlet, it was fantastic.

She used to a few different hobbies outside of school but gradually dropped them. She does gymnastics lessons once a week now and that's all. I don't have unlimited money but I have offered to pay for courses/hobbies and tried to get her to invite school friends to do things but it seems all they do is stare at screens. Nobody seems to go out and do anything or even hang around and talk together. They're just always on their phones. I think it's really sad what technology has done to her generation. She has no other interests except doing her makeup now it seems.

I've tried having adult conversations with her but she either doesn't engage at all, blows it up into a massive row or just spins me lies. Nothing changes. Sorry to be negative. I'm just feeling quite depressed with it all today.

If she is into Gymnastics and enjoys it, I would bet money that that club has more sessions that she could attend during the week or at the weekend. She might like that and make more friends. My sport was Swimming growing up and you basically always had to be on top of you hygiene/self-care because you’re literally in a swimming costume. Not sure what she wears for gymnastics but it might encourage her to take better care of herself.

She sounds like she going through it

She needs your support but you're doing the complete opposite and being quite nasty to her

Do you get any time with her one to one? Over Christmas I'd try to connect with her with a fun activity and spend some time together. Then make this a regular occurrence. Eventually you will find out what's going on in her world. And generally she needs gentle help and persuasion, and to know that you love her, no matter what.

Is she scared of you?

I would be concerned regarding the soiling of her underwear. If she's had issues of 'withholding' before, then it sounds as if she may have regressed. My ex partner's son had an issue with 'witholding', that led to chronic constipation. He was on medication to soften the stools, and also to make him go to the toilet. It frequently made him soil himself. Diet is very important, getting the right levels of fibre, fruit and vegetables and morning routine in going to the toilet. I think your daughter needs to see a GP. The lack of personal hygiene, again for a girl this is unusual, and not changing sanitary protection to the point she smells. I wonder if she could possibly be depressed or there is some ND?

She has no reason to be scared of me so I don't think she is but she doesn't like consequences. It's always been her go to to lie to try and get out of any trouble. I'm not trying to be nasty to her but I can't accept her lying, stealing, being nasty to us without any consequences for that behaviour.

We've had a bit of a talk this evening and I've tried to get her to see that there's no shame in needing a bit of help with her mental health and that lots of people (including me) have needed it at times. She's refusing to see the school counsellor but has said if I can get her a different counsellor then she'd give it a try. I think the GP will just refer us back to school but I'll see what I can do. She doesn't want to talk about whatever is going on with her but I've asked her to write it down if she can.

You need a reset.
It’s easy to get caught in a negative cycle.

practical steps:

• You have to clear and clean her room. For whatever reason, she is incapable of looking after herself right now. You have to make sure there’s no food in the room, floors hoovered, clean bedsheets every week. Make sure there is a small kitchen bin in her room with liner. Change it once a week.
• Bathing. It’s difficult because she needs privacy. Make sure there’s a large bathroom bin, so she can deposit her sanitary towels discreetly. If it helps, get into a routine where you wash her hair once a week (over the sink), give it a good scrub and condition. Physically run the bath or turn on the shower for her. Buy plaque tablets and make sure she uses them twice a week.
• put her hair brushes and make up brushes in the wash once a week.
• Make life easier by sticking to the favourite meals. I know it’s hard but it’s one less argument for you to have that day.
• Make a rule that any mess left lying around, everything gets binned. And clear up after her at the end of the day.

Now you shouldn’t have to be doing all this because she’s 14 but right now she’s not capable. So try for a couple of weeks and slowly try and give her more independence. But you may have to continue to support with her hygiene for a good while yet

You need a GP visit without her initially to talk these things through, mention family history of ND and MH and flag her previous issues.

Hormones and moodiness can be par for the course but no well adjusted happy teenager is soiling underwear, being smelly and hoarding food - those are serious behaviours with possible health repercussion and needs dealing with.

Do you have a safe person you and your daughter trust.
If so.
Explain it to them very honestly and see if they will have some time out alone with your daughter. For a respect and boundaries chat but also is she OK. Is something happening and for her to leave that WhatsApp communication open. Teens open up by message.
When she returns arrange some you and her time on a different day and explain the same as the safe person did.
Boundaries are huge so draw them up together at your 121. Also asking how does she feel because you feel crap so you can't imagine she feels fine.
Explain you can't live like that anymore and things need to change and not go backwards.
14 is a influence age. So contact the local church youth club. Ours is brilliant, films, teams stuff and tuck and cooking. Etc
She won't want to smell and they will will have a wonderful youth leader team who will cone along side .
Worth a try.

My immediate thoughts were possible ND. You mention ND family members and you yourself are thinking this is a possibility.

Please listen OP when I tell you that the information you have given and your own inkling is enough that you are best now pursuing an assessment for Autism/ ADHD. (Consider a PDA profile as part of it.,)

She's being a difficult teenager but it's magnified X 10 with some kids struggling with being different.
If you go to a general doctor or psychiatrist they will probably just say ' depressed ' ' anxiety' even ' borderline personality disorder '. That helps no one without really understand what's going on at a deeper level. The showering etc is very likely a sensory issue. All these things make sense when you know what you're looking for. If diagnosed then you have more chance of help in school ( not much but you can argue for some allowances). You have the option of trying ADHD meds if she'd ADHD and diagnosed. I've researched for my own son and the responses re meds for ADHD are overwhelmingly positive.

On the NHS you will struggle to access an assessment. Could you afford to pay privately?

I'm sorry to say the school will probably be little help. If she's coasting along they will just say she's fine. They do that to most of us.

I'd talk to her about the possibility she may be. See what she says,what she thinks. I did this with my son. It's important to know who you are and why things are difficult as it's hard enough being a teen these days.

I'd just pick your battles and try let anything go that you can. Can you agree a schedule ref showers? Give her a choice. Many ND kids have to have choice and control and hate being told what to do. So basic, you have to shower or I'm lookin at neglect as a parent. So we have no choice. But you decide exactly how. So you can either do it every other evening or every other morning? Which would work best?

It's the only way you're getting anywhere here.

I'd look at joining a group on FBook ( PDA parents or something like that. You'll see very similar issues, get advice and support.

Ref a private assessment, you can go straight to that without the GP. You can look for accredited assessors who follow the standard NICE guidelines.

I know already you're going to have alot of difficulty even via your GP accessing this. But definitely raise it with them. People are waiting years to get an assessment and are gaslit and fobbed off terribly atm.

It's so costly though, about £2k private assessment which I appreciate is almost important for many.

Smelling poorly, not eating lunch, and the toileting issues all suggest some deeper problems than a teen behaving badly. That she’s secretly bingeing on candy etc. also raises a bit of a red flag for disordered eating on top of the other stuff.

Why do people lie? Because they know they are in the wrong and don't want to get into trouble.
So, try to hang fire on your own initial reaction of 'argh ffs dd not again' take some deep breaths and say something along the line of 'Kid / dd/ <insert nickname or term of endearment here> we need a talk, you have five mins to make a space for me to shove my backside on your bed and we're having a chat" keep your voice light, but firm, no anger even if your feeling monumentally peeved off.
Give her five minutes and then go and sit on her bed, make yourself comfy and start talking. Start with asking if she understands that when she says 'no' or 'you think' or 'whatever mum' or whatever rude word / phrase / behaviour is inappropriate and unpleasant.
I'd trust her answer with this, and my guess will be a resounding 'no'. (My dd has SEN, she masks a massive amount and copies / absorbs how she thinks she should behave/ respond.) explain how tone of voice and words can be conveyed as being rude / aggressive and go through different scenarios with her.
Hygiene, if she has a laundry basket / bin in her room remind her to put all dirty clothes in there, and you'll need to prompt her daily to use it. You'll also need to prompt her to either put a wash on, or give it to you to wash. Tell her any pants left with skidders on the floor will get binned and she'll have to buy her own pants, if they get into the laundry basket she'll have more money to spend on clothes / makeup etc. you'll need to see this through, and be prepared for the meltdown when she realises she has no pants! Harsh but very effective! (Obvs keep a new pack in your room just incase she runs out on a school day!). Don't make an issue of the skids, she can't help it, it's not an act of defiance, just shove them on a hot wash, and maybe think about leaving a landing light and bathroom light on over night if she’s freaking about using the toilet at night.
My dd has a laminated chart of jobs to do before school and after school eg morning, brush teeth, brush and tie hair back, make sure all uniform is correct (because my dd has quite a few difficulties she has a clean shirt, trouser, socks and pants hung up (I was hugely relieved when the school had a new head and the tie got ditched and the uniform, apart from the fleece, was made generic), it meant we could afford a clean shirt and trousers for each day of the week...again only because dd has difficulties (ds just has two sets as he uses deodorant so never stinks and rarely drops food down himself)
Deodorant wise, my dd has numerous allergies so she can only use 'rock-pit' she doesn't like the feel of it (sensory reasons) but we've talked a lot around not stinking, as it's very unpleasant for everyone around her, and she risks being bullied, missing out on friendships. The deodorant isn't 100% effective, but it's better than nothing.
Hair washing and brushing was a massive issue with dd, but we went shopping for a shampoo and conditioner she really likes, a hair turban, a big soft towelling dressing gown, and a stupidly expensive but very soft hair brush, which has really helped. It might sound daft, but it has made a difference, obviously might not with your dd, but it's finding something which helps encouraging personal hygiene.
Do you reward her for good grades / behaviour / attendance? I appreciate money might be tight but can you suggest Saturday/ Sunday xx amount of time is study time and then reward both kids with a £1? Or offer a £5 if the end of term 'report' is good (my kids school do a grade 'summary' at the end of each term with a detailed report at the end of the summer, I know schools are all different so you may not get any info until the end of the summer term).
The eating; she might well have sensory issues around tastes, textures and smells. Encourage her to help you in the kitchen, encourage her to choose dishes she likes, and prepare them with her. We had a rodent nightmare so now have a very strict rule of no food to be eaten anywhere other than round the kitchen table.
If she does have SEN she may be the chronological and physical age of 14, but is likely to have a much younger cognitive age, so you need to role back the parenting to a younger age...it's really hard and it sucks. Having one NT and one ND kid the parenting of my ND dd is bloody hardwork, and sometimes I'd just like to cry and scream 'screw you autism and just fuck the fuck off'. But then I remind myself that I love my dd, and although at times it's hellish and I'll be honest and say a very very small part of me envy's my friends with NT kids, I'm lucky to have her.
Tiredness / hunger / over stimulation and illness hugely magnify my DD's difficulties, so I keep to very strict routines, even though at times it's a pain in the arse having limited flexibility during the weekends and holidays.
Oh and DD's primary and secondary school were clueless with recognising her difficulties, like your dd, my dd was / is quiet, shy and had no behavioural issues at school (actually she did, but they flew under the radar in comparison to the mega disruptive kids). Just easier to give detentions for PE kit omissions/ not having the right resources etc etc. than looking into difficulties with organisational and time management skills.
It is really hard OP, and it's just trying to find things which work. A few years back Another poster on here recommended the book 'just mum and me' published by American Girl. I'd highly recommend it, it definitely helped my relationship with dd. I also purchased the 'all about me 2' American Girl which deals with hygiene, health, and keeping safe. It's aimed at slightly younger teens, but I'd just put it on her bookshelf / desk or whatever surface is available in her room, and leave it for her to browse, she'll almost certainly think it's 'lame' but she might flick through it and find it helpful.

Thanks for all the comments. She wrote me a long letter last night so I have a better idea of what's going on now. We were able to sit down and talk about most of it last night. Some of it was the usual teen stuff. She thinks I'm controlling and too strict because I won't let her have social media but I'm not willing to bend on that one. She's complaining about too much homework, but again, I think that's normal teen stuff and she really doesn't get much, it's just more than she used to as she's doing GCSEs now.

The bigger stuff is she's been bottling up a bunch of trauma about something that happened in the summer, which is around when her behaviour got worse. I have tried to talk to her about it several times since but she's been telling me she's fine and to focus on her brother, who is also struggling with trauma from it. His school have been really helpful and he's on a waiting list to see a counsellor, hopefully in the beginning on January. My daughter has agreed that if I contact her school and ask for her to see the counsellor she will give it a try. She says she wasn't at all helpful the last time she saw her and was just told she was fine so she's worried that she'll think she's making a fuss over nothing but I've reassured her that no counsellor would think that. She doesn't want me to talk to school staff about everything so I'm thinking I tell them enough to get her referred back to counselling and then put all the info in a letter addressed to the counsellor and ask school to pass it along. I'm hoping that will give her a starting point so dd finds it easier to talk about things.

A lot of the suggestions people have made are things I've already tried/am trying, but I'm taking everything on board. I think the posters who said I need to reset and treat her like a younger child for a while is right and this is what I'm going to try over Xmas holidays. She's apologised for her behaviour and I think this time it's genuine rather than just being sorry she was found out.

I do think she's probably neurodivergent and I've talked to her plenty of times about that as I think the main thing that helps people like her (and me) is knowing there's not something wrong with us - it's just that our brains work differently from most people and that's why we find living in a neurotypical world hard sometimes. I don't think she would actually get any useful support from a diagnosis and I can't afford a private assessment. The waiting list here is years for an NHS one. I've given her the choice to seek a formal diagnosis if she wants it and so far she doesn't but I'll support her with it if she changes her mind and I've suggested she discusses that with the counsellor to get a professional opinion instead of just mine. In the meantime I'm going to research and discuss ideas with her for what we can do differently to try and help her stay on top of things.

I am still worried about her mood swings but it's so difficult to know what's teenage hormonal behaviour (she only started her periods this summer) and what could be the start of bipolar. I think a GP appt might be a good idea but so far she's resistant so I think we'll revisit that in the new year. Hopefully we can make this a good break and start the new year in a better place.

That's a really positive update Estraya. I made an error on my post the book I recommended is called the 'caring and keeping of you 2' not 'all about me'!. Sorry I can't edit my post as on the app.

So glad you've given a positive update.

If you have ND in the family I would think that was the issue rather than being Bipolar. So many ND Women get misdiagnosed with being Bipolar.

She does sound very much like my DD who has AuDHD along with ARFID. Do you think your DD might have ARFID too?

If she was constipated when she was younger, have you ever eliminated dairy from her diet? CMPA seems really common amongst people with ASD.

We started with talking positively about people we know with ND before seeing if DD would agree to us speaking to SENCO.

Regarding the Counselling, are the school Counsellors experienced with Counselling ND girls? I only ask as we found Counselling utterly useless for our DD. One of the problems is that she. Any express how she feels very well. It might be worth doing this simple progress checker to see if she needs a bit of support with her speech and language.

Does she have an ECHP too?

And how is she with the toilets at school. Our DD found them completely overwhelming and was given a toilet pass from school along with use of the disabled loo.

If she's scared of going to the toilet, have you got night lights stationed along the route?

Just to add that I tackled DD's BO buy buying her Lush products. She was more than happy to jump in the bath with a bath bomb.

Any time she is out of the house I would clear dishes out of her room, do a load of her laundry and change her sheets and open the window.

I found that washing the sheets at 60 and keeping on top of washing her blazer and dressing gown helped too.

It is difficult and you probably feel that you shouldn't have to clean her room for her but for me, it helped DD to look after herself.

Untangled us a book that should help you deal with the normal Teenage stuff that's mixed in with all of this

@Estraya im sorry to ask and I hope you don’t mind, I was just wondering what she was like as a young child? For example 4-5 years old?

Thanks TMT. I don't think she has ARFID - I think it's normal fussiness that maybe I've indulged too much as I was forced to eat things I hated as a child and didn't want to do that to her. She doesn't gag on stuff or even really hate that much food. She just only wants to eat her favourite things and doesn't have the maturity to voluntarily eat a more balanced diet for her health. I do think she has some issues with disordered eating and has a real fear of getting overweight. That's probably my fault. I have some issues around weight myself and have probably talked too much about losing weight in her hearing. I'm going to suggest we both go on a health kick for a new year resolution focused on eating well and exercising together.

She doesn't have any speech and language issues at all or an EHCP. I don't think she has any learning difficulties. She has about average intelligence I think, but her brother and I are both very academic and she feels stupid by comparison. I'm trying to get her to see that comparison is not helpful and that all I want is her to do the best she can do. I don't expect grade 9s from her and I'm also trying to get her to see that there is value in her other qualities and, while I think grades are important, they're not the be all and end all. We've been talking about careers and I've found something I think she'd be good at that she's interested in so I'm hoping this will provide some motivation.

I did expect her to keep her room clean and do her own laundry, but I'm taking a step back from that and supporting more for a while to try and get her into some good routines and take the pressure off.

As for the toilet issues, I think that being scared was an excuse and we've got to the bottom of it. She was eating a lot of something that she knows doesn't agree with her stomach. I have taken away her access to money for a while so that stops that issue hopefully. She has a toilet pass at school because of a health issue anyway so doesn't have to deal with toilets when they're full of teenage girls!