DD15 refusing school

[captivate]

Hi all, I am hoping for some advice and thoughts on what to do about the situation.

DD15 is academically capable, presents as much older and more mature than her age, but is very emotionally immature.

At home she has always been a handful. We had her assessed for Autism when she was younger and they said she had some traits but they didn't feel she met the criteria.

Throughout primary school her teachers would comment on poor concentration, poor organisation skills, and towards the end of primary there were some comments being made about her attitude towards authority but it was never bad enough for there to be any real intervention or consequences. On the whole she generally muddled along, had friends and was polite.

At home was a different story. She has always been cheeky, disrespectful, rude, aggressive, selfish, horrible with her words and I have mainly bore the brunt of that. I have absorbed it mostly. I am only human and of course there have been times where I have shouted back, but on the whole I have tried to be the calm and steady landing pad for her struggles and big emotions. I have love bombed. I have ignored bad behaviour and praised good. I have put consequences in place. Nothing works for long.

Now she is in her GCSE year and she is refusing to go to school. I think this is a combination of a fear of failure and just low mood in general. I suspect she could have ADHD but up to now she has been adamant that she doesn't want to see the doctor and doesn't want to be assessed.

The situation with school has got so bad that I have overruled and have made an appointment with the doctor and I will get her on the waiting list for assessment and see what they recommend in the meantime. I have also arranged a meeting with the school next week.

The thing I want advice on is the fact that she will say the direct opposite of what she thinks or what is the objective truth. Recently we discussed what to do for her birthday and I had an idea for something she and I could do together. She rubbished it. But now her birthday is getting closer she is asking why we aren't doing that thing even though she was very clear that she didn't want to. That is just one example but this happens all the time.

The other thing is that she keeps saying that she doesn't want to go to school because it's boring and she already knows everything and she can teach herself. When that is simply not true. She is very capable but there are subjects she does struggle with (mostly because she has convinced herself she can't so she doesn't try). Is this some kind of defence mechanism or is she actually delusional?

She is constantly reassured that there is no such thing as failure with her GCSEs. If she doesn't pass she can resit maths and English. All we ask of her is that she tries her best. She does talk about courses after this year and seems to have plans and goals.

I don't know how to help her. I have tried helping her get more organised, helping her stay on top of her room because she struggles with keeping it clean and then gets overwhelmed. We have talked about what is going on in school that she's avoiding but she says there is nothing. Mostly she just tries to find any reason why it's my fault or at the very least not her fault as to why she's not going to school.

Have any of you been through this and found something that worked? What do I do?

Thanks in advance!

I just wanted to say I read your thread. I don’t have any words of wisdom but I recognise some of this from my child. Yr 10 and 11 seem like the worst years for children who struggle with academic life. It’s the highest expectation with the a lot of subjects children just have to do. Schooling on how to pass exams is primary compared to just learning about the world.
i loved school at this level - but it came easily to me and I loved all the praise. I can’t imagine what it’s like when you find it tough. You most just feel crap about your self

I agree ADHD sounds possible, but a diagnosis will take time and may not be a silver bullet. Her school should make adjustments based on her presentation they do not need a diagnosis. What does school say about her non attendance? Are they helpful?

I think her comments about school probably are a defence mechanism. I would suggest focusing on the low mood and encouraging her to talk to someone - you could try a charity like Young Minds? If she can talk about whats going on with someone non judgemental (not saying you are, but that’s probably what she feels) thats the first step to her deciding herself how to solve it.

Thanks for the replies. Yeah I don't expect she will be assessed any time soon and even if she is diagnosed I'm not sure what it solves. But maybe at least it could be a step towards her not beating herself up over the things she struggles with.

I will try again to suggest she speaks with someone. I have suggested this in the past and she completely refused. Her primary school offered her counselling and she wouldn't accept that. Her current school are helpful and have made it possible for her to go to a quiet room in break times and bring her friend if she wants to because she finds these times overwhelming, though I don't think she makes use of this. They have allowed her to go to a smaller room for exams because she can't concentrate in the exam hall. They also are "ignoring" the fact she goes to school in her PE kit rather than full uniform - there's a consensus there that right now if she's in the building that's something. So they have been great, I think there's probably not a lot else they can really do.

We have reached the stage where everyone around her is doing their part, but she isn't, or can't, doing her part.

Schools put massive amounts of pressure on GCSE students.

The constant messaging is about how important they are and the kids are very aware that failing them really really does matter.

It doesn't matter what you say at home you won't be able to counter that. By this age the students know it is true. They know that if they don't get X grades they won't be allowed on Y course.

I taught for many years and we always had stressed year 11s. Some years we had year 11s who tried to kill themselves because of the stress.

What's her academic achievement like? If she's not expected to pass then this is usually the point where it starts to strike home with students and they can get very very defensive.

Some prefer not to try than to try and not to pass and so they opt out completely. Sounds like that is what she is doing.

In your shoes I would focus on keeping her mental health ok - is she self harming at all? Would you know? Then if that's ok maybe try to focus on passing maths and English.

Her achievement is mixed across subjects. We haven't had any predicted grades yet but she struggles with maths and science - she's retaking a biology module, but she's doing foundation maths and got the highest grade possible in the module she sat last year even though its probably the subject she hates the most.

English, English lit and Geography are her stronger subjects and she does well in them. But at the moment the fear of failing at the weaker ones is overriding everything.

Ultimately, if she refuses to engage with this year what happens?

As for self harming, I would hope I would know - she's not hiding her arms or legs. She is low though, has little motivation and just wants to sleep and watch TV. She has a boyfriend and was out at a couple of Halloween parties with friends last week so she isn't completely isolating herself.

She's always found it difficult to open up about her feelings but she will come to me about big things and serious things and she does confide in me a lot. This issue just seems to be too much and she doesn't seem capable of finding a path through.

So in these circumstances schools focus on the grades.

So in practice that means -
They'll try to get her in an attending classes. They'll prioritise English and maths.
She may be able to sit in some kind of support base/supervised classroom to do semi independent revision the rest of the time.

If the school think she'll engage they may get teachers or TAs to work with her 1:1 in the support base particularly for maths and English.

If she refuses to engage with them after two or three tries they'll direct the resources elsewhere to students who can engage.

Worst case she refuses to go into school at all. School may then sort out teachers/TAs to go in and work with her 1:1, again mostly English and maths.

They will pull out all stops to get her physically into the gcse exams as in general once students are in they write stuff down and do at least grade.

Every year my school has kids who we can't get in the exam hall because they are just too anxious and they don't get a grade at all.

Could you explain to her home ed isn't an option as you'd have to pay £200 per GCSE? Currently, her school are entering her so saving you all £1000 plus
She needs to be looking at level 4 minimum/level 5 better for Maths/English
Science - is she trilogy or combined?
Geography - has she a field work trip to look forward to?

Nowadays, a part-time flexible table is frowned upon sadly.
Could the school enter her for those four subjects and she goes to an off-site provider/college the rest of the time?

Science she is combined, and geography she had the field trip a couple of weeks ago. That was touch and go if she would even go to it but she did go thankfully.

We are in NI so it might be slightly different and I'm not sure what's available around here in terms of colleges or other providers. Or even what the school would try to put in place. I'm hoping I can discuss this with them next week so we are clear on what our options are.

I don't even think the money would sway this now, even though usually she's all for a bargain and wouldn't want that to happen. I don't know how to break this cycle and get her going back reliably. It was bad before the half term break and I had hoped that break would be enough to get her some space and then she would go back but she was supposed to be back yesterday and just completely refused both yesterday and today.

I could have written this post, dd15 doing gcse and has decided that she'll wing it, i also suspect my dd has adhd. I tried counselling, being nice, being angry, listening, letting her stay off, leaving her in half days etc. but she just wants to be out socialising all the time which leaves her knackered. I've personally just decided to leave her be, if she fails her gcse then that's her choice as no amount of talking to her get through. My daughter is very stubborn and just likes to lie on socials when we don't let her go out, I've stopped cleaning her room, and just not really listening to her complains about school no more. I've no answers but for my own mental health I had to step back, also for the wellbeing of the whole family as it was just creating an atmosphere, she'll make mistakes and hopefully she'll learn quickly and I'll only step in if it's a serious matter (yes gsce's are important but they can be reset and if that puts her back well that's on her).

Another parent either the same DD,I also could have written your post!!
So the first thing I'd say is that you are not alone. Look for the EBSA thread on here.

My DD15 completely dropped out of school in year 10 last year) but we were v lucky that she agreed to be assessed privately at a huge cost and given an asd diagnosis. I also suspect adhd. Her anxiety was bad, and she was self harming in a subtle way (scratching her arms and drawing blood), so she was put on sertraline and melatonin for sleep. Only then were we able to get her to go into school for an hour, etc.

It's been a long road, and we lurch from "I reckon I can wing a few gcses" to " I'm never going back to school again" .

You sound like your doing lots of things right. Apply for an EHCP. The LA have just agreed to assess for us.

Yeah this feels very similar. I have gone back and forward on how involved to be and have considered stepping back for my own mental health. Ultimately it is up to her and it's her life and I have explained that to her as well, but I guess I'm at that final stage of feeling like I need to make sure I have tried everything and done everything in my power to help her, and if that still doesn't work then I can step back in the knowledge I did my best.

It sounds like you also tried your best and I completely agree with your approach, and if nothing improves it's what I will be living fairly soon.

Thanks for this reply. I'm sorry to hear your DD struggled so much. Did the sertraline and melatonin help? Has the self harming stopped now?

I fear the doctors won't really be willing to give my DD anything without a diagnosis, and I'm not sure she would take medication even if they did.

When she dropped out last year did she repeat the year? If so, how did she feel about that? I think that would make things a lot worse for my DD and she would just never go back again.

I will look at the thread you mentioned and also into applying for an EHCP. Thanks

I'd cut the GCSEs right down to maths, English, geography and whatever is her next best subject.
5 GCSE passes including maths & English is a million times preferable to making her takie 8 or 10 and her refusing school entirely.
Just assume she has autism/ADHD and act accordingly, the diagnosis is irrelevant at this point.

“The thing I want advice on is the fact that she will say the direct opposite of what she thinks or what is the objective truth. Recently we discussed what to do for her birthday and I had an idea for something she and I could do together. She rubbished it. But now her birthday is getting closer she is asking why we aren't doing that thing even though she was very clear that she didn't want to. That is just one example but this happens all the time.”

This sounds just like my autistic daughter. I started to understand a little after we have a brilliantly detailed speech and language assessment. My DD is what others describe as “high functioning” (which usually means they can’t see how she is affected by being autistic as she “doesn’t look it” 🙄) and comes across and being very articulate indeed and doesn’t appear to have any speech difficulties at all.

However, I discovered after the assessment that her expressive language is high ability (98th centile) but that some of her receptive language is much lower (25th centile is some areas, 7th in one!). Receptive language is what she understands, and it’s not just about understanding the meaning of words, it is about how information is interpreted.

So, for my DD it helped me to understand some of our bizarre conversations sometimes. Sometimes she insists we had agreed something but I know we didn’t, or she is insists she doesn’t like something that I know she does, and seems angry with me as if I am actually the one who misunderstood! I’m probably not explaining this very well, but the speech therapist explained it to me in a way that made a bit more sense at the time.

Your DD might well be autistic/have ADHD. You could start researching support strategies and using them straight away though, there is no harm that can come from that.

We have found using declarative language really helping, and creating a low demand environment (and school does not lend itself well to that).

From our experience, I would definitely say to listen to her and not to force her to go to school. Her mental health is priority and the academic stuff can wait. She could do online lessons when she is ready, there is a lot out there now.

I think honestly I would push her less. The only thing I'd put my foot down on is not speaking to you or treating you disrespectfully. That I'd go nuclear about tbh, I just won't have it. And attendance. I'd insist she goes in. Whether she works, doesn't work or even whether she stays there is her decision to make.

At the end of it all, there is only so much you can do. Therapy would help her a lot but again if she won't engage, you can't force her. You can force her to go into school or into a room either a counsellor but you can't do the work for her, sadly.

Op I had similar with my son. His mental health was suffering so much I pulled him from school completely. His confidence was rock bottom. I home schooled for a year but he was reluctant to do anything. Now.... he's doing a course at our local adult education centre and he's completely changed. Love's it there, small classes and his assessment has gone from 0 per cent in maths to 50 per cent in 3 months. His school gave no support at all. I asked if he could just do English and maths GCSEs, was told he needs to do all subjects. He left a week later, I couldn't watch him suffer anymore. Sending hugs, it's not an easy time

I have considered pulling her out. The problem with that though is that then instead of there being one reliable flashpoint in our house - getting her out of bed and to school in the morning - there would be multiple flashpoints relating to getting her to do any kind of school work at home.

I have had the same conversation with her about attendance so at the moment I have been saying that if she is at school that is enough. She doesn't have to worry about homework or revising, just being there is a start. But she just refuses to get up. There is no amount of forcing her that works.

I even tried saying that it was her responsibility. That I would take away the "demand" of me trying to get her up and out. When that didn't work either she laughed and said what did I expect, if she doesn't have to go she's not going to go.

It could well be that she needs to see what "doing nothing" really is long term so she can find her own motivation.

But that is a risky strategy because then what if she spirals and has nothing at all to like about herself and it makes her mental health even worse?

shellyleppard I'm glad to hear he is doing so well now!

@captivate thank you, its not an easy time for you. Sending hugs 🫂 💐 🙏 ❤️

I've done exactly this. She'll sit a max of 5-6 GCSEs next year, because she didnt repeat year 10. And swap to foundation maths and science to take as much pressure off as possible. It is months until the end of the academic year so I fear the school will start to lose interest in helping her.

Also, if you can get the GP to sign her off with anxiety, that takes the pressure off you and buys you some time to think about next steps. DM me if you want to. It's a tough thing to be going through!

Firstly the nhs waiting lists for assessments are massive, years long. If you can pay for private assessment with a specialist who does both private and NHS assessments

Do you think she could be overwhelmed? Sensory overwhelm? It’s possible that her behaviour at home is fall out from masking and maintaining normality at school. It is possible that home behaviours are linked to increased school anxiety, particularly in light of GCSE intensity. Often the higher the levels of anxiety, the more need there is to control environments.

maybe ask the school how they can adapt? Is it possible for her to undertake less GCSEs and have a part time school timetable? Can the pastoral team help with strategies around self management? Your DD needs to identify specific difficulties they can help support.

Failing this approach the LA and explain that despite your best efforts DD is refusing school? Ask what the school could potentially implement and what services the school can buy in? Schools can opt for online schooling or identify and finance alternative provisions. Some schools will try to off-roll non attendees but this is against Ofsted/LA guidance.

Personally I’ve found warmth, humour, empathy, calmness, fair boundaries more productive than other strategies but everyone’s different.

what is her relationship like with peers? Does she have a friendship group? How does she feel about the kids and teachers in her classes?

get her some professional careers advice to help focus

Get her some blood tests too even if you have to pay privately. Iron, B12, D, folic,

I am also in this position with my dd. Just about dragged her through y10 but attendance has fallen off a cliff since starting y11. Even if she goes in she doesn’t attend lessons.
she now says she won’t do her mocks or the actual exams as can’t cope with being around other people, even in their quieter space.
She doesn’t want to go to college either. When I challenge her she says she doesn’t even want to be alive.
I swing from feeling desperately sorry for her-surely no one wants to be like this and thinking she’s got us all (parents, school, camhs, ss) over a barrel because no one can make her engage with anything she doesn’t want to.

If she’s very resistant to things it might be worth looking up ODD and PDA. These are sometimes linked to an autism diagnosis.

My child had school based overwhelm and refused to engage with support/assessments/help. As a family we struggled to manage things and in the end pulled her out of a horrid school environment to safeguard her. She had burnout for a good while and we mainly focused on creative activities and animal care so that she was doing something therapeutic, expressive and physical. She is now looking at level 2 apprenticeship's rather then GCSEs.

if self motivated there’s lots of complete online GCSE courses and study centres where adults/children can sit GCSEs/A Levels.

I would encourage her to go and offer as much support as possible with this. I would offer a tutor to help her catch up as she has probably missed lots which makes it harder. I would offer counselling if you can afford to.

But I would also cut off the WiFi when she is at home. I would not provide money for outings if she has not been into school.