Handling ultimatums and threats

[NSomersetMum]

DH (13) last night told us she has developed a New Rules system for how she is going to live her life, and if we don't agree to them all she will leave. She has been writing this system for a few days, on topics such as screens, money, school etc.

For context she has some SEND characteristics which mean her verbal and non-verbal reasoning, and emotional intelligence, are very high for her age, however her working memory and processing speed are low, which together can show up as a high degree of self confidence and self reliance but a low degree of risk awareness and impulse control.

Back to her New Rules - She says everyone deserves to live with maximum happiness and she isn't going to put up with our bad parenting any more. She completely 100% believes that she knows what's best for herself and can make all her own decisions.

I don't doubt she is taking this extremely seriously- she tends to fixate on projects and they become very consuming for her, and become complete reality to her that what she is creating is going to become true.

And obviously she is feeling not in control enough or too controlled by us and I have discussed with OH about places where we can give her more independence and autonomy to try to top up those feelings more.

I haven't seen all the details because she says she hasnt finished writing all the topics yet. But what I have said so far is that it's clearly very important to her which means it's important to me, I want to talk about all the topics and hear her opinions, and that it sounds like her system is based on threats but I would rather we worked together to find new rules or boundaries where things are bugging her.

How do people handle serious threats from their kids, even young ones?

I want her to feel listened to, but I have to let her know she just can't make all the rules at her age, there will still be some she doesn't like.

OH has suggested a good cop bad cop approach of one parent doing the supportive listening but thr other telling it straight like wake up this is not how the world works. I don't want her to think only one parent cares about her.

I fully believe that to her her threats and ultimatums are real.

I think how you manage them depends on the child.

In her case, she's fixated and logical. If she wanted to move out, what's the logical, thought out plan for that? Money, a place to stay etc.? Negotiating independence while showing logically that she would be better off with you than not might work.

Having a child who is ND does make parenting very different!

You sound like a fabulous parent.
I don't have any words of wisdom for you but I think you approach is great.

Maybe when she shows you her plan you could ask her to help you with your plan as a parent so you can make sure they align. It might help her to empathise with your position.

I did the plan for moving out!

The ‘I’m leaving’ OK, how are you going to get there? What items do you want to take? Where are you staying? Have you planned to get work? How will you afford food?

Or ‘Let me grab that suitcase for you’

These tend to be quite shock tactics where the threats don’t work. This also stops the manipulation.

Pleas have it stashed away and show her when she’s older!

what threats/ultimatums do you think she has made or will make?

seems you’ve set aside her comments about your parenting and are waiting to see or hear about her suggested changes and plan to consider and address them.

Your H’s plan is bad IMO!

Take her seriously but tell her , her plan and new rules plan also needs to include a plan on what would happen if she moves out … where will she go, work, afford food and rent how much has she saved if this was to occur… you are the parent …, repeat that last sentence again and again

You are the parent. By all.meams see what she has to say but you are the parent. I've always been lax with mine in that I knew they could be trusted and of they couldn't they'd be careful so moat things they were allowed to do. However, I wad in charge until they hit 18.

So firstly this is a real teaching opportunity.

I'd suggest that you say to her that whenever the government wants to change something in this country they make the suggestion for what they want to change,

Then they listen to what people say about it.

Sometimes they have made mistakes or there are things they haven't thought of so they change what they were planning to do a bit.

So ask her for her "New Rules" and then ask for a week or so to look at them and see if there is any way you can help her make them better.

This gives you time to think about things and discuss with your OH. Also what she comes up with will show you what her priorities are.

Then you get back to her with issues with her rules.

I can guarantee there will be problems with her rules.

Example:
Your rule saying you want to drive my car is against the law of this country. The law of this country is more important than your rules so I can't let that happen.

Your rule saying you can eat what you want when you want will make you happy now. But it will lead to health problems later in your life, which will make you unhappy then. My job is to balance your happiness now and your happiness in the future so I won't let you eat what you want and hurt future you.

Etc etc

She’s being a prima donna; just don’t indulge it.

I would start by challenging her premises. She isn’t old enough to judge your parenting. It sounds, from your post, that you are a kind but over indulgent parent, which is a lot better than the reverse. Also, she clearly isn’t ‘emotionally intelligent’ if she believes everyone deserves to live with ‘maximum happiness’. That is just selfish hedonism.

I would totally call her bluff. Tell her that you love being her mother but, if she doesn’t accept your rules, you will have to work together towards finding her alternative care, be that foster parents or a children’s home. Ask her how she suggests you proceed with social services.

What I always tell my children is that I am happy to listen if they have a grievance and will try to find a compromise but, ultimately, until they can look after and pay for themselves, my decision is final, it’s not a democracy.

I'd also dig deeper into the plan for leaving. Ask her to include a rationale for her decision to rule the household using (empty, emotive) threats.

There are quite a few philosophers who have based their theories on the idea of maximising happiness.

She might be interested in reading John Stuart Mill or reading up on utilitarianism.

I think that you can tell her you will listen to her new rules but also if she has rules then it's only fair that you have some too. As, after all, it's your house etc.
Then you can trade rules ... maybe that approach would work. Meet her at her own game

Maybe you should consider challenging her to build an evidence base for her rules. If you have a rule around x amount of screen time a day, and she wants unlimited, then what evidence does she have to back up that choice? Presumably your limit is based on evidence that it’s harmful to children / people to have so much exposure to screens. Could you turn it into a bit of a collaborative research project?

I feel like she will want each rule to be considered seriously and the worse response from you would be a general one, where she feels dismissed. So lean into that and carefully consider each one or each principle one by one. But get her to do the research as it’s her project.

Maybe the best outcome would be a Venn diagram of 'things I can completely control' 'things adults must control for me' and 'things under shared control'. Then work on the shared control section so she has clear information about how the control can be shared.

It's unusual for me to disagree with every word of a long post but I disagree with every word of this one. Bonus points for the misogynistic use of 'prima donna'.

I really wouldn’t indulge in trading rules or an intellectual discussion of her rules. This is accepting that she is negotiating as an equal, which just isn’t healthy. I might discuss her ideas if she changes from rules to ideas and accepts she doesn’t get to make rules.

One reason teens are tricky these days is a lot of middle class parents give them no responsibilities but adult-like autonomy. This is not a healthy combination.

It is really important for them to understand the trade off between responsibility and privilege. If they ask for privileges, ask them what they can contribute to the household in return, whether that is chores or working extra hours on their academics.

Teens need to develop into adults. Ask her whether she thinks she would be the one setting all the rules on a sleepover with her friends.

I’ve always tried to respond to my DC quests for autonomy as long as they meet my ‘parenting rules’. My first job as a parent is to keep them safe, next it’s to keep them healthy and once they are safe and healthy they can look to be happy.

DC needs and wants for happiness can only be agreed if the criteria of Safe and Healthy are met.

I agree you listen. But there's a limit to that. Ultimately you are her parent and you have a duty to keep her safe.

So if she says she can come and go as she pleases and you give her £100 a week or she moves out you tell her to toddle off then and make a plan for that.

If she is willing to discuss reasonable rules and boundary changes because -of course - at 13 she wants more autonomy then you compromise and meet isn't the middle at the point you are still being the parent.

But I do think you seriously need to reevaluate if your DD has high emotional intelligence if her threats to not getting her own way are to leave 😂

DH (13) last night told us she has developed a New Rules system for how she is going to live her life, and if we don't agree to them all she will leave.

Where does she think she will go, at the age of 13?

How can they be real? Where is she actually going to leave to?

Regardless of SEND characteristics, she is controlling/coercing you. The only way to deal with that is to face it down. To rehash a Brexit saying “Other people have sovereignty too” and she has the parent/child roles reversed.

Sure she can pack her suitcase like a 5 year old. But her phone will be cut off, as will access to hotel services, and lifts around the place.
She doesn’t get to impose the rules, although she does get to politely negotiate.
She would do well to remember that her parents are also entitled to maximize their own happiness by guffawing and teenage shite being spoken around them.

Am I the only one thinking she's 13, just parent her?

I have two 13 year olds I wouldn't entertain this.

I actually agree with @Newbutoldfather although your DD is not necessarily being a prima Donna; in her mind she is being absolutely logical.
Take her completely seriously on every point but make her work through them to their logical conclusions.
Also insist that parents have a right to maximum happiness and present her with your own set of rules which can be slightly absurd but plausible eg. Parents will cook and serve food that they like and do not have to take account of children’s’ preferences; parents do not have to do any housework; children can have lifts only if the parent was already making that journey.

It will give you all some interesting discussions about how societies work if nothing else!

Exactly what I thought. Your daughter is testing out assertiveness and making her own destiny - I think this is great! But very hard to deal with. Threats of social services and calling young people prima donnas are ways to belittle them and damage their relationship with you.

She’s expressing a need for power and control, you are relating to this OP and showing you will listen. I’d share the concerns about good cop bad cop, I think each of you needs to play both roles. Listening and validating her feelings, but holding the boundaries and giving a clear and calm sense that you are both in charge regardless of these plans. Sounds like you are doing great and I like her style!!

Well what does she want? Mine would come up with these strategies and as a warning to you most of the times she had these ‘epiphanies’ was when she was involved with nefarious influences or up to no good. She couldn’t handle the guilt of doing the ‘wrong thing’ , which is something I’ve seen often in ND kids.
Telling you she’ll leave is emotional blackmail and you need to cultivate a policy of zero tolerance to that or your life will become very difficult indeed.

OH has suggested a good cop bad cop approach of one parent doing the supportive listening but thr other telling it straight like wake up this is not how the world works. I don't want her to think only one parent cares about her

One good cop one bad cop is a bad idea - I think you should both listen to her, discuss her ideas and explain why not all of her ideas will work.

I'd be very, very interested to know what she considers bad parenting!

Children do need to be listened to and treated kindly. But they dont yet have the capacity to make the rules.

My 13 year old can complain about my parenting. He can suggest changes. I will listen. I won't get offended nor take it personally nor ridicule him. I understand the frustration of having to take time to grow up, of being small and dependent.

But at the end of the day I'm the adult and the parent and I decide how to fulfil those roles.

Anything different would make him very anxious. Deep down he knows he isn't ready to manage his life without me setting the limits and boundaries just yet.