Teenagers moved to their dad's

[Spinachandcheese]

And ignoring me/being rude in messages. Refusing to chat, refusing to meet up.
I've been trying to make things better for ages by working on how i react to them and trying to make a home they want to be in. I don't want drama I just want kindness and peace and consideration of others...
They weren't into that so after the latest incident they've moved out.
Incidents include them being loud and hyper keeping the younger children awake, being mean to them, them bullying me for lack of any better word, them refusing to work with any sort of punishment (their dad aka abusive ex husband with way more money took away options like WiFi ban thus undermining me), and me losing my temper with shouting and trying to grab stuff off them or kicking them out or eventually when I thought better of trying to bundle a 14 year old boy out of the house (yes he could safely go to his dad's), I left the 16 and 14 year olds at home, myself going out with the younger children, only to come home to find significant damage to the house.
My solicitor is useless as is the contact agreement we had in place. In desperation I even called social services today (answerphone). I just want to keep some kind of contact and ideally work through the issues. Their dad is against this as evidenced by a recent email warning me off contacting the eldest to try and sort things out. He is at least on email of the opinion that they've done nothing wrong and it's all my fault.

Any advice welcome. Thanks.

Ps any slating please be gentle I've been having literal heart pain over this after days of poor sleep.

Photograph the damage just for your own records.
Let them go and stay with dad.
Tell them you love them and the door is open, but you will leave it up to them.
Then get on and sort your house out and look after the younger ones.
To quote another wise MNer, drop your end of the rope.
It is quite likely they will fall out with dad soon enough.

Sounds like they are at a difficult age but it’s a bit of a silver lining they have somewhere safe to go. I am sure the thrill of ‘winning’ will wear off soon for your ex when he has to parent them.
The teens will almost certainly come back to you.
Obviously we don’t know what the abuse was or if their father is a safe parent but I would just give it time. Sorry it sounds very hard.

Thank you both, yes I have evidence of the damage as well as times I've filmed the madness.
Everyone says they'll come back but by then the damage is done especially in terms of their relationship with siblings who are also feeling the loss.
They might see their dad for not being perfect but he has money so...

You clearly have a volatile relationship with them and I don't see much accountability with regards to your own behaviour. You state your ex is abusive and undermining you, and your 16 and 14 year olds are bullying you. Yet you lost your temper, you grabbed their stuff, you kicked them out. I should imagine they are looking for a stable homelife where rules are firm but fair and they aren't going to be kicked out at every disagreement. Sorry OP but I'm not sure you're being honest with your own behaviour here. As for a dad "winning" at having his kids full-time, I doubt this is many dad's idea of winning tbh, more wanting stability for their kids. Stop blaming them and your ex, who is clearly only picking up the pieces, and try and rebuild your relationship with your kids.

I love how some people say things like just give them consequences, firm but fair rules... Yes deciding on fair consequences and rules is all well and good, and we've had many a chat about this but if when the time comes they decide they won't accept the consequence then what?
How would you enforce them please?

Also how would you go about separating two hyper teens from two small children who need to get to bed other than asking them to leave the situation/leave yourself?

It sounds as if you don't know my ex but thanks.

It sounds like you need some sort of family counselling and mediation rather than going through a legal route. They sound too old for the court order.

I've got in touch with an organisation who provide this and even been for a meeting but they can't force anyone to attend and the kids are refusing.

You don’t seem to be accepting any responsibility for your own household not running smoothly.

how do you separate teens and young children at bedtime? You take the young children to bed? Unless the teens are following you around and entering the young children’s bedroom, what is the issue?

choose punishments that are non-negotiable and appropriate to the infraction. You can’t expect dad to continue punishments at his house.

@Spinachandcheese This is normal stuff with teenagers, they will be challenging and having younger ones in the house as well is difficult. I've been there myself I can assure you. You said you imposed a WIFI ban but somehow your ex undermined you on this and took away the ban, well how? You are in charge of the ban in your home not your ex. If he decides to give them WIFI back when the teenagers visit him that's his choice, you can't control that. In my experience teenagers will always test you, that's pretty normal, they can be completely thoughtless too. We all get cross at them, but we don't get physical and throw them out to their dad's and wonder why they don't want to return.

To the last two posters, yes follow us around is exactly what they did. They would refuse to go downstairs or to their own rooms, follow me into the younger ones' bedroom and continue to wrestle them and get them hyped up with associated screams and shouts. On a school night.

How did he undermine the WiFi ban? He heard about it and responded by getting them unlimited g for their phones.

You ever think that maybe you didn't get to the stage of losing your temper in the way I have because you had the power to carry out fair consequences for poor behaviour?

Ever think about what you would do if you didn't have that power as a parent?

Take away pocket money? Who cares dad gives us more...

And then with the added complication of having to protect the younger ones from the older ones.

Next?

Anyway I was here for advice with moving forwards positively and in a way that doesn't sever things forever.

If anyone with any experience could help me out I'd really appreciate that

Does their dad encourage the bad behaviour and the disruption of bed times etc? Is he the father of all your children?
It sounds as if letting them go to live with him for a bit will be a worthwhile experience for them and him. I have no doubt they will face some challenges. It might well be a learning experience and in the meantime you get a break.

If you can't enforce consequences then something very drastic has broken down in the parenting with your kids. In which case you will need some parenting support from social services.
As for SS not answering the phone, are you sure you called the correct number? You will go through to their first response which also has out of hours service. You won't be a priority though as the children are safe with their father, unless you are saying he is abusive to them too?
I'm surprised if it's as bad as you say with the younger ones at risk from the older children that you aren't relieved to have some respite. Your ex will now be responsible for taking on the challenges of your teens, so let him do it and focus on your younger children. Build your relationship back up with your teens by being supportive and understanding.

As far as you know is there a reason for their hyper behaviour? Are they often like that because it's very odd for them to be following the younger ones into their rooms and messing up bedtime.

The older ones and younger ones have different fathers. Father of the first two was never happy about me having more children. Yes father 1 does encourage disrespect from the teenagers e.g. he has told them they are asked to do too many chores (they're not). He tells them all about how he pays (paid) maintenance and how I apparently wasn't spending it appropriately, which I heard minimum once a week despite explanation.

Yes it is odd that they can't respect that young children need to get to bed and have a good sleep before school. Not like I haven't calmly spoken with them about it a million times.
I believe the eldest to have adhd and have thus far only sent her the odd article or online test, which she passes quite easily. My mother believes the second eldest to be autistic but i dont think so.

Of course I'm relieved they're not here in a way as it's much nicer for the little ones, things are calmer I'm calmer unless it's the early hours of the night and I'm up worrying of course.
But I still want to keep contact, hopefully sort things out and that's proving really difficult.

Re poster who asked about ss I reckon I'm in a different location to you.

Think that answered everything!

OP, give it some time. I have read many similar stories on here and it seems that things often do work out, when the teens have had experience of the reality of living with the other parent and the other parent has to do a bit more than just the fun stuff.
Take this little bit of respite. It may well turn out to be for the best.

It sounds like all you can do is give it time for now.

@fiftyandfat thank you. Hope so.

Well if your ex has them permanently then don't be surprised if he puts a claim in for maintenance from you, plus he'll be entitled to the child benefit etc. Then you can moan back about what he spends it on!

You’re right, there might be a lot to unpack in the history, but you need to focus on the now.

you will need to make child maintenance arrangements. That would probably be a good time to encourage your ex to set up a visitation schedule and encourage the teens to stay with you periodically. If they aren’t ready for that and need some decompression time, suggest a standing dinner for now.

It would also be a good idea to look into family therapy for you and the teens. From your posts it seems like there is a lot of resentment in both directions that focuses on the division between your two sets of children. That won’t get better unless you all work on the problem.

Just let them carry on living at their dads.

Keep in contact by texting regularly but don’t go to social services or court just yet.

They are old enough to make their own choices and if they’re choosing to not see you or contact you, then it’s up to them.

Keep the communication open but don’t beg as that’s what the ex wants.

Give it a couple of months and the ex will probably be asking you to have them back or they’ll be asking to come back.

I feel like some of the posters have been a bit unfair on you as this sounds like an incredibly difficult situation. I absolutely understand when you ask what to do if your children won't accept the boundaries you have put in place. People have chastised you for losing it at your kids but if they ignore everything you say then it makes it very hard not to lose it. And I totally empathise with the mixed emotions you will be having right now. Relief that you have some respite from their behaviour but desperately missing them because they are your children and you love them. I don't have advice but I really feel for you. Hug the little ones a bit tighter and know that the older ones will return.

You know they are safe they are at their dads and happy to be there so let them stay enjoy peace in your own home for a change.
Honestly just try and take a step back and leave them all to it.
Dont do the begging texts or constantly message hes a parent as welll as you so let him take over.
If they message first message back nicely if its a awful message ignore.
Sooner or later one or the other will come back.

It might sound harsh but id be enjoying the fact both kids want to be there think of the peace do some you time.
Honestly if it was me id have their things packed and taken over to daddys house.
No respect in my home you aint staying go live with your dad.
My rules my house dont like it go live with your dad simple.

Fuck boundaries their old enough to know better. What some Mnetters seem to think is that all teen will listen NO they dont news flash some teens are just plain awful.
You cant gentle parent young adults you cant put them on the naughty step because some just wont listen.
Boundaries hear that on every thread that mentions kids.
Leave them at their dads thats what they want id make sure thats what they get.
You need a break from it all and right now is great time to do it.
So let him deal with his kids just like you have been doing and go do something for you.
As poster said above you know where they are they want to be there and safe there so fuck it have to be crawl to be kind sometimes.

Are you actually childless? Because people are always perfect parents before they have children.

OP while the children are away, read some parenting books, go on a few courses, work on anger management and your own stuff. Maybe it's too late for the older two but you have other children, and parenting is the key.