Does this behaviour need counselling?

[HeadFairy]

Hi, DS is 14, almost 15. He's at a very rigorously academic school, one of the top state schools in the country, but he's getting into quite a lot of trouble. I've just had another meeting with his head of year, and they say while he's fine in the classroom, his behaviour outside of the classroom is causing concern and has led to one suspension already.

He's always been what I would call a show off with his mates, playing everything for laughs. In primary school he was the same, also getting into trouble for doing stupid things. One incident got him suspended at primary school too, and involved social services. He just does stupid things without thinking because his friends egg him on.

Now he's older, he's quite aggressive with his friends, when playing football at break times he's always getting into fights, squaring up to other boys and generally being a PITA, but my family say if he doesn't learn how to handle his aggression and dial things down he's going to end up getting into serious trouble, or seriously hurt.

I thought all of this was pretty par for the course for 14 year old boys, he's clever, good looking, tall and sporty and cocky af, but my mum is worried he needs some kind of therapy, CBT etc to learn how to de-escalate situations.

His grades at school are good, he does hardly any work and is a straight A student. He says there's no bullying or similar woes. He's always been pretty 'alpha' but I do agree he needs to become a little less 'in your face'.

Sorry for the long post, just really would appreciate some thoughts.

This still sounds like minimising, I think, op. It sounds as if you see everything as being bad luck or someone else’s fault- another child suggested it or he was responding to another child throwing a grape (is this what he said or what the school said?) Of course sometimes that will be true but if your son is the one repeatedly in trouble it’s pretty likely that he’s the one who needs to change his behaviour, rather than that he’s just an innocent victim of circumstance every time.

It will be hard for him to take this on board unless you also take it on board.

Now he's older, he's quite aggressive with his friends, when playing football at break times he's always getting into fights, squaring up to other boys and generally being a PITA, but my family say if he doesn't learn how to handle his aggression and dial things down he's going to end up getting into serious trouble, or seriously hurt.

I'd be more worried about other people getting seriously hurt. Likewise with the bullying - he might well not be bullied, but his behaviour is bullying. Squaring up to other people means they have to back down. He's aggressive and threatening. Is that the kind of man you want to raise? Who thinks violence is the answer? Take it seriously and deal with it now before he gets aggressive with a future partner. He needs to learn to manage his feelings without losing control - and then blaming other people for winding him up. Do you see where this leads?

Anger management training/techniques etc, but the first line is for you to understand this is not normal at all, stop minimising it as larking about and blaming others for egging him on, and make sure he understands that too. My teen DSs hate this kind of kid and would be scared of him. That's not something to aspire to, to instil fear in others.

This is what the school told me, he isn't usually the one who initiates, but he gets caught up in it. I don't want to minimise it at all, I really want to help him become the lovely young man I know is in there.
I feel like punishing him for something that happened 6 months ago (but that the school have only just told me about) isn't the right path, but happy to be corrected on that. I am going to get him to do more around the house, neither child does much (he has a younger sister), and that has to change.

Helping round the house more sounds like a good idea. Good luck with it all.

Fair enough. It does sound a difficult situation especially as you say he's a lovely boy in other situations. There's a really good book about teenage brain development but Prof Sarah Jane Blakemore that might be useful on things like impulse control and the effect of being in a group on risk-taking- might be useful. Hope you find a way through.

Right this is going to be controversial on here, and you probably won’t like it either. But teenagers can be just as (or even more) needy than young children. Neither you or your Dh are home until 8pm ish is that right?
Thats too much time on his own for your ds. He needs more supervision and more of your time. Yes mumsnetters will be queuing up to say how their teenagers are totally independent and out all evening, don’t need adult supervision blah blah.
Ive got 3 boys, two are adults one is 13. I also do some work in a large comprehensive. Believe me your ds age is very tricky. He needs more adult time, he needs homework to be supervised if he’s not independent at it. You or Dh or both of you, need to be much more involved, and top of what’s going on in his life.

I don't think this is controversial at all.

Agreed. My son was popular because of bad behaviour, now putting him in for a test for ADHD. He does also need a humbling experience.

You mention that you don't think it is ADHD because your son is able to focus. Yes, ADHD children can focus - on things that interest them and/or they enjoy. Once my daughter was told she was talented at a particular thing, she not only enjoyed it, but also became more motivated, meaning her focus on her it was good.

Just pointing this out so that you don't discount the possibility. The fact it's in the family is even more reason to assess.

I don't think this is controversial at all.

I agree. But just being around more isn't enough.

Permissive parenting has a lot to answer for, I see it everywhere, parents (mostly mothers) treating their dc, especially their sons, as if they are the very most important person in the world. What they don't realise is that when so many families raise kids who think they and their wants are at the centre of the universe, who will these kids get along with, when each and everyone of them is a special princeling? It's not great for social cohesion. Loving our kids shouldn't mean that we spoil them and OP is minimising her son's awful bullying behaviour.

It's a tricky, fine line between being supportive and accommodating and pandering when kids/teens dig they heels in. Firm boundaries, age appropriate activities and parental time and interest are required. They do need to hear the word 'no' and know that no means no.

As a therapist I would see your son if he was complaining of depression or anxiety and would expect some improvement but I wouldn't see him based on his behaviour purely, we're not magicians and can't just change people sorry op. Maybe you need to ask him why he is this way x

I also think you and your husband should abandon the rose tinted lenses.

He does this because he can, and because he enjoys it, and because he feels entitled to do that.

At 15 presumably he will listen to no-one, so as some one else said you can wait until the police and the courts have had enough of his shit.

I would hate my daughter of the same age to have to share a classroom with someone that is really not socialized at all. And who seems to be quite shameless about it.

He sounds like a boy I know - with ADHD

I have to say I find the assumption that an arrogant, entitled, aggressive young man simply must have ADHD, rather than just being arrogant, entitled and aggressive, pretty damn offensive.

He sounds as though he is on a fast track to a criminal record for violence.

Counselling? I think more anger management, emotional regulation skills type course.

This is MN, everything is put down to special needs nothing to day with behaviour.

It's the same when someone encounters someone rude and aggressive, they must have MH problems rather than just being an absolute arse.

It sounds like he needs parenting not counselling. What have you done previously to tackle his behaviour?

Sorry OP. Your son sounds like a bit of a dick. I went to school with someone like him. He thought he was gods gift to the world. And his mother was a bit like you. "He's a lovely boy at home, just doesn't think etc."

Does he have any additional needs? It can often present itself as poor impulse control and bad behaviour

Of course, he could just be naughty! He could just be a bit of a dick, no one on here can possibly know.

But before you take the advise of randoms online slagging him off, have a think about his behaviour going back what sounds like most of his life and really think about how he's parented, what weak spots there could he and if additional needs come into play at all

One suspension could be overlooked but twice is worrying. It sounds as if the difference between him and the others is getting worse rather than better as he grows up, and that means you need to do something but "counselling" might not be the right support for him. It depends on what the underlying problem is. For example his "playing the clown", aggression and his inability to de-escalate could be down to a social-communication skills deficit and counselling wont solve that, he would need proper social skills support. His obvious intellect might keep him going in the classroom, and he may be able to use his intellect to cope with many situations that don't come naturally to him and develop good enough strategies to cope in formal situations, but when it comes to the give and take of interaction with his peers he could still have quite severe deficits that get him into trouble.

he saw the school SEN teacher for some emotional literacy counselling.
No one has ever mentioned ADHD, my sister and her daughter have recently been diagnosed, and I suspect my mum also has traits that would be recognised as ADHD, however I'm not sure about da. He can focus on things, he can follow tasks through without being distracted. I appreciate that's a fairly simplistic interpretation of ADHD

I would consider ASC as well as ADD. "Playing the clown" is a classic way to cover up not just social anxiety but mistakes and confusion about how to behave. His sympathy towards younger people and his granddad are wonderful and a hopeful sign for the future but they don't rule out ASC, he may be able to be highly empathic in some situations but not others. His impulsive reactions could be either.

I am not saying he has either one by the way - just that if it's serious enough that you're thinking about ADHD then it's worth thinking about ASC too.

I am suspecting ADHD based on the impulsivity, ease of influence from others, difficulties with peers socially, not on what you mentioned.

Thank you, I will use this as a basis for some conversations. Been doing some reading and it seems this is a key age for developing empathy, so I want to frame some more conversations around what he thinks others feel in certain situations, like when he's aggressive on the football pitch.

Thanks for your reply, I don't want to write off his behaviour as MH issues just to avoid dealing with it myself. It's not nice to hear everyone pile on and basically say my son is horrible, without actually knowing him, but that's MN I guess.

Stop minimising and justifying.
Stop saying others are leading him astray.
He isn’t being “alpha”. He’s behaving badly. He thinks rules don’t apply to him and his mates.
He is old enough to make his own decisions. Someone threw something? Up to him to retaliate or walk away etc.
Time for him to take the consequences of his actions. Not therapy. 🙄

OP, ASC and ADHD are NOT mental health issues, they are neurodiverse conditions.