I am distraught.

[BaldieBeardy]

Divorced Father to two Sons - 14 and 12.

Their Mum and I separated in 2014 and they presently live in the next street to me. (Mum is primary carer).
I have had the boys with me 2 - 3 nights every week since the split.
Up and until last year, the children seemed liked they had coped with Mum and Dad's split. They had always been remarkably empathetic, kind and loving people. The kind of kids people would say "are a credit to you".

Last year, my eldest started going off the rails. Playing class clown initially to becoming increasingly disruptive at school. This culminated in two temporary exclusions. At the same time I was receiving reports of unruly and disrespectful behaviour at home from his Mum. Bad language peppered arguments, lying and more. The police have been involved obliquely when he has attempted to run away to be with (clearly unsuitable) friends in the middle of the night rather than stay safe at home with either parent,

Then he started to treat me with the same contempt that he shows his Mum and teachers. This was new. It's clear that he realises there is no punitive action of consequence from any adult or authority figure.

Our youngest Son had until very recently appeared to be the more mature of the two boys. Sometimes verbally commenting on his older brother's unwise choices.
Just lately our younger child has become withdrawn and disinterested in almost everything. His behaviour at home and at school has nosedived like his brothers.
He only seems interested in his phone and the bloody Play Station. His Mum confiscated his phone after a recent bout of bad behaviour and I have stopped him from playing video games.

Since the latter, he has taken his brother's attitude that I am a worthless idiot. Yesterday evening, after a call from the school, his Mother and I sat him down again to calmly try and understand the root of his behavioural changes. It ended with him calling names and goading me to strike him ( something I have never done).
The image of him laughing at me haunts me. I feel completely helpless and useless. Both of my children seem to hate me and have clearly been colluding.
I feel suicidal as a result.

Their Mum and I have always agreed to maintain parity in our approach to discipline. The reality however has been very different. Set boundaries have not been maintained and this in someway explains why for a long time their behaviour at her home would be markedly different at mine. They would not dare to swear at me or taunt. I used to find it difficult to reconcile the monsters she described with the well mannered kids who turned up on my doorstep. It seems like everything has collapsed now and they simply don't care.

I am at a total loss. This level of hatred cannot be "just being / becoming a teenager." There must be a deeper root. The school have organised multi-agency sessions with my eldest including counselling. Perhaps they will tease out why he is so angry. I feel like we have arrived at a point of no return. That their respect has gone forever and I am now simply an irrelevance in their lives rather than a mentor, carer and provider.

If anyone can share anything positive / guidance / advice, I'd be massively grateful.

BB

No actual advice, however my brother used to be like this. Absolutely horrific. He's an adult now and has wonderful and respectful relationships with both parents. He's kind and genuine and the loveliest bloke I know. Things can change. He's apologised and it isn't spoken about anymore. Hopefully someone can offer some advice for you.

You sound a good dad. God parenting teens can be hard regardless of any homelife situation. Maybe they've just got in with the wrong crowd, they are so influenced at this age. I'm sorry I don't have any particular advice, just to keep asking through school what other support there is. One thing that did jump out to me was your youngest becoming suddenly withdrawn and plays computer games all the time. Are you certain of what he is doing on there? That is a red flag to me if there is a sudden change in behaviour like that.

"I am at a total loss. This level of hatred cannot be "just being / becoming a teenager." It does sound like you're going through a really tough patch, but what you've described does sound within the realms of "normal" for the wild ride that is teenagerhood.

"I feel like we have arrived at a point of no return. That their respect has gone forever and I am now simply an irrelevance in their lives rather than a mentor, carer and provider." You sound like you're catastrophising here. Teenagers are renowned for pushing parents away... It's a normal part of development. Your job is to survive it. Behind all the aggro and big talk they need to see a parent who can weather the storm.

Boys at around age 15 are mostly hideous. They start to butt heads with Dad. It’s a bit of a power struggle. I’ve raised two adult boys and seen it myself, and am now going through it with stepsons. If you could’ve seen the switch flip in my stepson…he was obsessed with Dad, literally the day he turned 15 he now despises him.

Keep doing what you are doing. Get the support offered with regards to involvement with criminal behaviour as that needs to stop, get your heads down as parents and power through it. I once read somewhere that teenagers are so awful to sever the ties to us, or we’d never let them leave and be adults. I keep that thought in mind!

You mention that their attitudes have led you to feel suicidal, and you really do sound profoundly affected by their rudeness and hostility. I'm wondering if you might benefit from an appointment with a GP to discuss your mood, or perhaps some counselling (the latter has been invaluable for me in my own teen-parenting adventures!).

The first thing that strikes me is that you and his mum need to meet the head of pastoral care urgently. Something is going on and I am wondering about bullying, drugs, grooming. You must speak to tge appropriate person at school asap.

Agree with potatohead. Do you remember Harry Enfield's "Kevin the Teenager"? The way he switches from angel to horror? It's funny because it's true 😂

so it seems from your post that you’re partly attributing it to your ex wife not maintaining agreed levels of discipline ? You could be our neighbours (also divorced). To the outside world, she’s too soft and he’s tried to discipline. But the reality is kids are afraid of him, and she’s trying to provide balance. (Not saying that’s the case here, but could there actually be a difference between you and ex wife ? that your ex wife has not kept to your agreed boundaries because she doesn’t agree with them ? Or because she can’t ?)

personally I think you and your wife need a facilitated session to go back and agree your strategy, so that you are a team on this. Presumably you are both doing your best, even if what that is looks different.

you can’t expect kids to respect either of you, if you don’t respect each other. And your post does seem to suggest you think she’s let things slide ?

i’m Totally not having a pop at you. I see the stress my friends are under, with slightly older children, and have massive sympathy.

@SobranieCocktail completely agree. Really good advice.

These can be challenging years. Don't despair.
Punitive sanctions just don't work very well for this age group. They have to want to comply and co operate.
Peer influence can be stronger than parental influence so you have to be smart.
Enable your boys to win with you rather than fail.
Give them more freedom but with responsibility. Do you give them pocket money? Do they earn it?
Set ground rules and boundaries but with realistic consequences. Rather than removing phones, set limits.
I' d dig a little deeper into your younger sons withdrawal though. Has something happened at school? What is he looking at on his computer?

My main advice is to stay a team with their mother, at all costs.

I can completely understand how you’re feeling, the same is happening at the moment with my daughter albeit she’s older. It’s so hard as a parent when your child has changed to a person you don’t really recognise anymore. I sat and thought of all the wonderful things we’ve done in the past and how she is now and it breaks my heart, I feel like I’ve lost the person she once was.
Children have so much that can influence their behaviour nowadays, I’m sure we all just hope and pray that it’s a phase that will pass but it leaves me questioning where I went wrong and what could I have done differently.
I hope things get better for you I really do.

It might be worthwhile investing in a copy of ' Blame my Brain:the amazing teenage brain revealed' which is helpful in understanding teenagers

They can go off the rails a bit. But they tend to return to more pleasant teens / humans at 16. Definitely don't take it to heart. It's not your fault. They will mentally return to you soon

For example my DD 14 goes out a lot with friends and stays out very late. She lets me add her to Find my Phone so I at least know where she is and don't get massive anxiety. She gets the bus home late or walks home late with friends and often very short skirts. There's nothing I can do as she go out at 4 after school then returns late. As for my DS he was a horrible human for 3-4 years rude, argumentative and disrespectful. He came back to us as it were at the start of year 11 and now he's great to be around again and we enjoy each other's company. It's a fine balance really. Of calmly expressing your disappointment, biting your tongue and taking deep breaths and walking away

Sounds very sad but it's great you are on here asking for advise so that alone shows your a good dad. I hope you can get some advise. My son is 14 and it could Be us soon He is certainly More argumentative lately.

Look you two have to be strong, teens can really test you. And you have to have each other’s backs.

I have been through quite a lot with one of mine to the point I thought I was going to lose it altogether and here’s what worked for me.

I enrolled in a course for parenting teens which was extremely helpful, super supportive with very real people doing their best by their kids. It was so great to get that encouragement each week and I was introduced to strategies that went down very well with my kids.

I also started seeing a therapist who again was incredibly supportive, let me rant but also gave me straight up advice about managing tricky situations. She was the one who advised me to call police on my eldest, my beautiful daughter 😞 which I did and the police were extremely supportive. Kind but firm with her and she heeded their warnings to a point.

I also let the school know what was going on and again, they backed me 💯 and would send me little updates on how she was doing.

The thing that I would
most have liked was support from my ex but he used the situation to win favour with our daughter. It made it so difficult to enforce boundaries because no matter what rule I made he would undermine me. It didn’t work out for him, she eventually came to her senses and rejoined the family as the lovely girl she had been previously but she has no respect for her dad and never sees him.

so if you two can try to trust that you are both doing your best, stay in close communication about their whereabouts and well-being, it’ll make you so much stronger as parents.

Remember that teenagers’ brains change and they do all sorts of crazy stuff without thinking, they literally can’t help it. But underneath they are still young and vulnerable and needing lots of encouragement (even when you feel like killing them 😜)

If it seems like everyone around you has the parenting thing sussed, rest assured they don’t. But it can be v helpful to have a network of people with whom you can be honest about what’s going on.

I think at this stage when their behaviour is truly awful, we have to hold on to basics like being glad they are alive and healthy. Anything more is a bonus.

I hope this helps, I know it’s hard.

I have 2 boys the same ages as yours, and a 20 yo daughter. Her teenage years were horrific. Drugs, running away, risky behaviour, truanting, involvement from both police and social services.
She's now at university, a sentence I thought I would NEVER say.
All that love, care and support you have given your sons, it is enough. They all mostly come through it, but at the time you can feel
like it’s the end of the world. I could not have got through the teen years without outside support.
It's not your fault. You have to be very very clear about that, because your boys need you to be strong.
If possible I would contact an outside agency. I was involved with Early Help. They saved me and my family.
Its really not your fault. The teen years can be unbelievably tough. They still
love you.

You can't stop them going out till all hours you just have to hope they're with a decent group of friends and return home safely. I added my DS onto find my phone when he wasn't looking so I can track him but I don't worry about him being out as he prefers his PlayStation anyway plus he's a tall strong boy whereas DD is petite

And yes, they could well be involved with drugs or cyber bullying, all sorts of horrendous things are affecting our children and they may be afraid to ask for help.

My son is 14 and asked me to join a gym with him which quite frankly I didn’t really want but the truth is it’s a chance to spend time with him doing something that makes him happy so I took it. And he’s o et the moon about it. So if there is any at all your kids like to do and invite you to do/don’t die of horror at the thought of you joining them, grab it.

Just read your post. First of all you sound like a great dad. These are trying times. Please don’t make it worse by beating yourself up. I wonder whether your sense of desolation is also to do with the fear of losing your relationship with your kids?
Here is my advice:

1. Take seriously the rather alarming fact that this is making you feel suicidal. Please see someone or make an appointment with your GP. You obviously need some support. Those boys need you but in order to help them you need to make sure you’re OK. This is vital - don’t dismiss it as unimportant! (Please 🙂!)


2. Unless you and your ex-wife are united you will find it hard to get to grips with how to regain your kids. Could you spring for two sessions with a mediator to help you negotiate a game plan? If you can’t afford this make a formal date in the diary with her. Go somewhere neutral and with a piece of paper write a game plan. During lunch (many therapists recommend this as a time we are alert and at our best). It sounds like you have both been doing a great job in large part but now with greater challenges you need to retrench and strengthen your partnership to effect good parenting.


3. Speak to the school and enlist their help, flag up any worries and forge a relationship if you haven’t already in case the ride gets rockier & also to start building the protective net around your kids (this is something mums I know do a lot of - it can be very helpful). Don’t go in all guns blazing in terms of your deepest fears. Just start an information gathering exercise. Your kids might be great at school but you won’t know until you investigate. If they are doing OK it will help put the situation in perspective.


4. Look into and research impact of phones and games. Cortisol is high after game playing and as I’m sure you know it’s like a drug. Aggression can result.


5. Most of all I would say you need to reclaim your boys from their peers. This will be hard but not impossible. “Why parents need to matter more than Peers” By Gabor Mate is truly brilliant and will help you with tools. It’s co-written with a psychiatrist and in it Mate (who works with teens) tells the story of how he had to ‘reclaim’ his extremely grumpy and rude daughter.


6. Exercise : list all the things you used to do with your boys before they turned rogue. One section for each child as it must be individuated. It can be dumb, sporty, meaningful, include any routines and got back in time as far as you need to. Now think and write down what you do with them now. Write down what they do by themselves. Despite them being teenagers their brains will not fully develop until 25. Find four things each that you could rotate to re-establish family routines. You will encounter a lot of resistance. Mate talks about this as winning them back. Kids are supposed to push back against us. The problem is that we (and you) are all competing with the electronic world. This (not us and their friends and loved ones) is where most older kids are getting the sense of connection that as hard wired creatures of attachment they are driven to find. Speaking for myself having read Gabor Mates work I consciously moderate my kids access to peers to continually reconnect with them and family. Radical huh?! And not always easy. The point is that it sounds like your lovely boys have found in their peers their sense of belonging. The drawback is that their peers are as immature and needy as they are. That’s why they need you. Good luck ! I’m sure it will be OK.

15 year old boys are horrific. Mine was rude, aggressive, up to all sorts of criminal behaviour. Their brains have lost the ability to empathise or see consequences and they are full of testosterone - not a good combination!

P.S Sorry for the long winded reply.
please also read “Raising Cain.” by Dan Kindlon and Michael Thompson and also watch anything by either Gabor Mate on YouTube and Erica Komisar (a psychologist - evidence based insight into parenting). Komisar is wonderful and has recently written a book about parenting teens called
“Chicken Little The Sky Isn’t Falling.” About parenting in an age of anxiety. She doesn’t fudge how hard it is but is very insightful!

Do not blame your ex. I notice when you talk about them when they were younger they 'were a credit to you.' No. They were a credit to both of you. She put the effort into them being decent kids. It wasn't just you.

Similarly you can't blame her when they start to go off the rails.

So stop with the blame, stop with the self pity (trust me - your ex is feeling it far more as she has them more.) keep your feelings out of the equation - that's not to say don't seek help with your MH. It's important you do. But that's a separate thing from your kids.

You need to work together with each other and all the agencies. Take their advice. Be honest with social workers teachers etc. Don't blame the ex. Remember it isn't personal - teens are hard wired to be shits. They will come through it if you maintain a United front and sensible boundaries. It will be tough. Parenting is.

Agree with this- parenting teens can be tough but if it's making you feel suicidal it might be that you'd benefit from some MH support.

There's a great book by Prof Sarah-Jayne Blakemore on teenage brain development that I'd recommend.

As PP have said, you need to be a team with your wife and present a united front. In your post, it sounds as if you're blaming her to some extent for what has happened and think if she'd taken your stricter approach, you wouldn't be here. But there is no way of knowing whether that is true- as teens get older a purely authoritarian approach becomes less effective- your sons know that you don't have control over them and so attempting to exercise control can lead to acrimony and rebellion. It can be better to treat them more as the adults they are becoming- where their behaviour is unacceptable, talk to them about why and agree a way forward rather than trying to lay down the law. (None of this is supposed to imply that you just put up with it, btw.) I would be interested to know how a conversation that was supposed to be about exploring what's happening in their lives ended up in such an awful row. It would be good for you and their mum to talk together about the approach to take, and don't assume that the best response to bad behaviour is anger or punishment.

It sounds very tough and I wish you well.