I am distraught.

[BaldieBeardy]

Divorced Father to two Sons - 14 and 12.

Their Mum and I separated in 2014 and they presently live in the next street to me. (Mum is primary carer).
I have had the boys with me 2 - 3 nights every week since the split.
Up and until last year, the children seemed liked they had coped with Mum and Dad's split. They had always been remarkably empathetic, kind and loving people. The kind of kids people would say "are a credit to you".

Last year, my eldest started going off the rails. Playing class clown initially to becoming increasingly disruptive at school. This culminated in two temporary exclusions. At the same time I was receiving reports of unruly and disrespectful behaviour at home from his Mum. Bad language peppered arguments, lying and more. The police have been involved obliquely when he has attempted to run away to be with (clearly unsuitable) friends in the middle of the night rather than stay safe at home with either parent,

Then he started to treat me with the same contempt that he shows his Mum and teachers. This was new. It's clear that he realises there is no punitive action of consequence from any adult or authority figure.

Our youngest Son had until very recently appeared to be the more mature of the two boys. Sometimes verbally commenting on his older brother's unwise choices.
Just lately our younger child has become withdrawn and disinterested in almost everything. His behaviour at home and at school has nosedived like his brothers.
He only seems interested in his phone and the bloody Play Station. His Mum confiscated his phone after a recent bout of bad behaviour and I have stopped him from playing video games.

Since the latter, he has taken his brother's attitude that I am a worthless idiot. Yesterday evening, after a call from the school, his Mother and I sat him down again to calmly try and understand the root of his behavioural changes. It ended with him calling names and goading me to strike him ( something I have never done).
The image of him laughing at me haunts me. I feel completely helpless and useless. Both of my children seem to hate me and have clearly been colluding.
I feel suicidal as a result.

Their Mum and I have always agreed to maintain parity in our approach to discipline. The reality however has been very different. Set boundaries have not been maintained and this in someway explains why for a long time their behaviour at her home would be markedly different at mine. They would not dare to swear at me or taunt. I used to find it difficult to reconcile the monsters she described with the well mannered kids who turned up on my doorstep. It seems like everything has collapsed now and they simply don't care.

I am at a total loss. This level of hatred cannot be "just being / becoming a teenager." There must be a deeper root. The school have organised multi-agency sessions with my eldest including counselling. Perhaps they will tease out why he is so angry. I feel like we have arrived at a point of no return. That their respect has gone forever and I am now simply an irrelevance in their lives rather than a mentor, carer and provider.

If anyone can share anything positive / guidance / advice, I'd be massively grateful.

BB

Teenagers are renowned for pushing parents away... It's a normal part of development.

This. They’re hard-wired to do this, and if it’s to the extreme, it can be hurtful and hideous. Not saying that your split with their Mum hasn't affected them, it probably has, but believe me there are plenty of parents still together who are having to deal with the horrible teenage years.

If you and their Mum can present a united front on this one and, above all, let them know that it’s because you both love them and want the best for them, that’s all you can do. You’re not alone, there are lots of parents having to ride out the storm and cling on for dear life. It won’t last forever.

My ex likes to point out that our teenager never misbehaves at his house... implying that it's something I'm doing wrong. The reality is that my son isn't anywhere near as close to his dad due to constant rejection and his dad simply not bothering with him. He isn't comfortable expressing anything negative or even disagreeing with him. It all comes out when he's with me. Stop blaming your ex, stop catastrophising (I was much worse than this as a teenager and nothing bad was causing it - I was just an arsehole for a while) and you need to seek help for your mental health if this makes you feel suicidal. It's quite an extreme and concerning reaction. Do not let your children see how much this is affecting you - they do not need to know exactly how much influence they have over your mental state and they need to see that you are solid and stable. The likelihood is that they will get through this and turn out to be perfectly nice, normal adults but they need to know that you are their mother are their solid rocks.

I always thought, when my son was younger, that he'd never behave like this, because I was raising him properly. That teenagers who behave in this way must have awful parents. Ha. It's certainly taught me not to be so bloody smug and judgmental.

Honestly OP, nothing you've said is beyond the realm of a "normal" difficult teenager. Hang in there. It will get better.

One of my children is a teenager. She has noticed a negative change in three of her close friends. These friends parents had split up, while in primary school, and they appeared absolutely until age 12. They started behaving negatively, she doesn't hang out with them now. However one of her friends who's parents spilt up a while ago, is still doing well. Her parents make an effort to include each other on trips, special dinners and generally treating each other like friends. There's a lot of respect between them and it seems to have worked well. As their daughter seems happy and doing so well in school and life. Do you think it would be better if they came to live with you full time for a while? Or could you start doing more things as a family (including the ex).Try talking to them, ask what they want to do?

There is some great advice on this thread & I have little to add except that first you need to look after yourself before you can look after them. I've found that it's helped to separate out behaviour, who that person is (the child you love) and your own reaction. Also that guilt / shame / blaming yourself is very unhelpful. Get yourself into therapy asap. Get some books on parenting / a support group (virtual / online) / the teenage brain. It sounds like right now you can't see the wood for the trees. Take a step back & make a plan for what you can do. It's a painful and difficult process parenting teens especially when they are troubled souls. Put on your own oxygen mask first - trite but believe me, true. It will be ok. It's not your fault.

I'm a Mum not a Dad, but can completely relate to this! I've always had a really close bond with ds2, who was kind, funny, talkative, soppy, cuddly, bright and generally wonderful. Then he turned 14 and just disappeared... The 14 year old version of ds2 was sullen, miserable, mainly silent, just so unhappy with life and with us as parents. I remember crying a lot - I couldn't believe he had disappeared and been replaced with a completely different person...

He's 18 now and is back to normal - took at least a year, but he started coming back at around 16 and is now almost completely himself again - a lot more sarcastic and sweary, but back to being talkative (argumentative!), less cuddly but will allow occasional hugs, but he's happy and funny and loud again and I'm so relieved....

We don't have a male figure in our family at home (2 x Mums) but I can see how it might have been and I don't envy you at all the position you're in.

Easy for me to say but just try to ride it out - always be there for them and they'll come back. Try not to take it personally (I did, obviously!) and it will pass...

The teenage years are very hard.

I don’t think OP is placing blame on their mum at all, or certainly didn’t mean to.

He said they were the type that people would say “are a credit to you”. I don’t think he literally meant a credit to himself, more a phrase that people use to describe them.

Boarding school if you can afford it? One with lots of sport, activities, meeting new friends etc to get them ''out'' of themselves and seeing new horizons?

Just to add - I did this for my son as a widow. It turned him around and he's doing extremely well now and is very hard working.

On the other hand - we were very good teen DCs. Or so DM thought, but in fact we felt sorry for DM as DF was an alcy, selfish, angry withno interest in us kids.
So, so as not to make her life worse we were 'good' - not really, secretly got up to all sorts. She was proud of us. But this wasn't a healthy set up for us DCs. Living a pretence - at least your DCs feel able to be themselves, however ghastly.

The first thing that jumped out to me is the fact you are feeling suicidal about this situation.
You need to get help. There is no way you can support and help your dcs if you are not in a better place yourself.

The second thing that stands out is that your OP is all about you, not them.
How they have been misbehaving at school and at mum’s (enough that she had to have the Police involved) but it was ok until they started to have that attitude with you too.

If. You want to improve things, you need to get yourself out of the way. The issue isn’t that they talk to you like shit. It’s their general attitude at school, the fact one of them has been expelled, that the ‘friends’ are not the best they could have (aka they will get into even more trouble).

So what is the plan with school? Do they have access to a counsellor there?Could you afford to go private and get counselling for them/as a family?

What did ds tell you when you had a chat? It might have come out as insult to you but what is he saying about his life, the way his family run etc. What is anxious about/rebelling against?
What is normal typical teenage behaviour (like rebelling btw) and what is not (like having the police involved). Are drugs involved too?

you need to start looking at things from their pov if you want to improve things.

Teens are assholes . Honestly try not to blame yourself, it sounds like you are doing all you can. They will grow out of it hopefully

dc will often save their worst behaviour for the parent they feel safe with, they live with most, they trust to be in their life however vile they are. My dc are often on best behaviour with their dad who they see less frequently as he’s the one who left the family house and the one they don’t trust to not walk away from them. I’m the one they take for granted and who gets the worst of it. It’s not weakness on my part or lack of boundaries. It’s also tough not to be in a two parent situation where another adult can step in and back you up or defuse things. They do tend to push away from mums at that age which is normal part of teenage separation and dads as role models become more important. I’d recommend doing fun stuff which doesn’t involve talking like climbing, gym, karting, later driving practice where you are just regularly in their lives putting them first and keeping them out of other trouble. Sometimes it’s those moments when you are doing something else they will open up. If you can manage to do stuff with them 1:1 that may help too if one is a handful and the other withdrawn. Also have you ruled out any SEN for the one who is struggling in school. Sometimes poor behaviour can be to cover up that not coping with schoolwork. Def recommend reading some parenting teens books as you learn that escalating into arguments doesn’t help and usually it’s better not to react to name calling at time and then address it when they have calmed down. Often they do apologise later. The treatment of parents is typical for start puberty. The behaviour at school is more worrying. But blaming the separation or the mum isn’t going to help - many two parent families will be facing the same issues. The older child may also have decided it’s not cool to do stuff with the younger one who may be feeling they’ve lost their best mate to puberty!

It is normal teenage behaviour, they just dial do it.

You and your wife may find some very different but useful parenting techniques in Dr. Ross Greene's The Explosive Child drrossgreene.com/the-explosive-child.htm

and his website Lives in the Balance livesinthebalance.org/

Hope you are ok @BaldieBeardy

You need to work with them, I think, and change discipline techniques as they grow.

Mines autistic so practising to be a teen since 7. Needs help regulating emotions, I find the opportunity to earn back stuff with good behaviour helps. If they have lost their phone then there is nowhere to go further and there is no point behaving as Dc pointed out whilst upping the behaviour. (Learn from other people's mistakes, read lots of advice and pick what works for you and yours)

Reminding them it's really shit to be a teen sometimes. All those brain changes.

Remind them that it's your job to be annoying because all parents are annoying. It's normal that they think you are a bit shit, bloody mean unfair etc. They'll get over it by the time they are 25.

Talking with them (in the car/doing something else at fucking bedtime works for them)

Remember they often see fear Emotion as anger at them as they are not accurate with interpreting emotions. Reassure them you are not cross at them if you aren't... (Eg you can be grumpy about being late with cooking tea or the traffic was bad)

Try and let the shit they call you roll of like water off a ducks back. It's due to strong emotions and brain development making it hard to regulate them. Talk to them about it at a different time about how people feel. No point when they are in full emotional point when they are running on their old brain emotions and not on newer brain thinking rationally. They are only going to respond to emotions and need a long time for the adrenaline to leave the system. Don't fan the flames again thinking they are calm before the hey have really completely got rid of the adrenaline.

Try to do calming activities with them... Do they like a shoulder massage or a hug? Foot massage? (Maybe more of an autism thing)

Praise them for good decisions, apologising, being polite, tell them they are lovely, joke with them but not them the butt of the joke.

Teach them to self sooth (mine watches videos on phone) could be reading or going for a run/bike ride

Apologise when you fuck up.

Tell them you love them.

Tell them you think they will make great adults because... (find something even when they are being shit)

Keep well fed.

Keep well exercised

It's bloody hard work. Don't take it personally.

Why have you taken away your younger son's ability to play video games? At 12? How long for? These games are often crucial for social interaction. They need limits of course but removing games and his phone completely between you sounds like he is getting two punishments for the same behaviour. This is causing him to rebel.

When your kids are teens you should be reaping the core values you installed as younger kids...but in a teen way. It's not about laying down the law and being a disciplinarian with this age. It's about reminding them of core expectations and sticking to that script. For example, if they are meant to be in at ten, and they get in at 10:30, whilst their friends are out til midnight, then your rules are still drawing them in. They just aren't doing it perfectly. So rather than taking the phone away as punishment - which might make them think "so I left 90 mins earlier than my friends and STILL got punished, I might just as well stay out the whole time if my parents don't recognise what I tried to do" - you just reiterate expectations and the reasons for them....As a pp mentioned, the Ross Greene book is good at teaching negotiation.

In my family we have red lines and we have negotiations. It's pretty harmonious in general.