I don't think so but was this rape??

ManicMonday007 · 2022-02-07T19:53:23+00:00

Please help. My 15 y.o dd was with (what I thought was a lovely) lad for 18 months ish, since 14, they were friends at first, he kept asking her out but she said no as she didn't like him in that way. Anyway after a while she started to like him as more than a friend and so when he asked her out again she said they could give it a go but she didn't want to ruin their friendship. Fast forward 6 weeks and he ends it out if the blue, she was devasated. I then find out she had slept with him twice but only in the last 2 weeks, so he slept with her twice then ended it, they were both virigns. Within a week he was with another girl, my dd had moved on 2 months later and when he realised that he tried to worm his way back. She told him where to go. She initially told me she didn't regret losing it to him, and they used a condom, she said he didn't put pressure on her but she was upset about the way it ended. This happened 6 months ago. I was then chatting to her about her new bf this weekend and she started talking about losing it, saying she was asleep and he had woken her up and basically had sex with her, I said did you say no, she said no I didn't, I said did you feel forced she said I just didn't really know what was going on. I felt sick, I didn't know how to react, what do I do now? Is this some form of rape or not? Do I do anything or leave it? I feel so sad for her and I don't know what his game is or was.

crochetmonkey74 · 07/02/2022 20:01

God this is one of those areas where it is hard to know- he woke her up- so she wasn't asleep when it started but if she felt forced it's the same isn't it. Could her saying she didn't know what was going on be a cover for the fact that she can't quite face the truth that she was asleep when he started?

Original poster

ManicMonday007 · 08/02/2022 13:28

Thanks for your reply. Would you just leave it?

Any other thoughts please??

OP posts:

PickAChew · 08/02/2022 13:31

Her reaction was a rabbit in the headlights reaction, by the sound of it. Not saying no is not the same as consent.

frugalannie · 08/02/2022 13:31

It's a bit of a grey area isn't it? Although if she was half asleep and groggy and didn't know what was happening then it wasn't 100% consensual.

Would DD consider counselling it may help her understand her feelings a bit more with everything that's happened?

cupofdecaf · 08/02/2022 13:32

I think you need to talk to her about boundaries and staying safe.
It's difficult without sounding like you're victim blaming but she needs to understand how to look after herself.
Also he's not her friend and sex aside she needs to understand that as well.

HirplesWithHaggis · 08/02/2022 13:41

I would say that yes, this is/was a form of rape, albeit you'd never get it to court. Something similar happened to me as a teenager, I absolutely recognise "I just didn't really know what was going on."

I told nobody, because I "knew" it was my fault, and that I was damaged goods. I couldn't "give" my virginity to a man I loved, in a caring relationship (preferably marriage!) so I had no worth. It took a long time, three or four years, before I named it to myself as rape, and those years included an overdose and a fair bit of promiscuity (once I was 16. I was law abiding even if he wasn't.) I couldn't articulate any of this to anyone else.

I'm 60 this year. My mum was/is an actual "1950's housewife", my grandparents genuine Victorians. You can have more understanding conversations with your daughter, and that's pretty much all you can do. In a generation who can apparently "choose" anything, including their own sex, your daughter had her choice taken from her, by a man she trusted and who utterly betrayed her faith in him. This may have rocked her to her core and knocked her off balance, she too may be struggling to put her feelings into words and assign meaning.

All you can do is let her know you're willing to listen, and to help her wrestle with her complex emotions. She may not choose to name it rape, it's a big word for so few letters, but she needs to regain control for herself. Perhaps you could seek out a suitable counsellor, if she's open to that.

Wishing you both all the best.

CanIPleaseHaveOne · 08/02/2022 13:49

@cupofdecaf

I think you need to talk to her about boundaries and staying safe. It's difficult without sounding like you're victim blaming but she needs to understand how to look after herself. Also he's not her friend and sex aside she needs to understand that as well.

But how can she stay safe in that circumstance? She wakes up, confused, and by the time she has figured it out it was probably over.

It is brutal for girls. How can they ever trust anyone? Unless we demand that young men are taught to have some self control, and some fucking dignity girls are screwed.

We urgently need some counterpoint to the machines in their pockets feeding them nasty porn, and mysogynistic treads all day every day.

There needs to be a comprehensive sex ed in school. It needs to be woven into the curriculum. It needs to be sustained all year every year from 12/13 to when they leave. They all need to have the language to deal with this, where the boy in this case cannot gaslight a young girl and imply he thought she wanted it.

We are really letting them all down.

KarenTheGammonRemoaner · 08/02/2022 13:50

As someone who has reported a rape before and who has studied criminal law, I can pretty much guarantee this will not be seen as rape in the eyes of the law. If you report this all it will do is put her through a horrible time now and possibly in the future.
It would likely get thrown out on the grounds he reasonably thought she consented, because she did not say no.

Crossornot · 08/02/2022 14:05

The first time this boy showed that he didn’t respect your daughter’s boundaries was when he persisted in asking her out despite her saying no. This persistence is not, despite a widespread cultural narrative telling us otherwise, romantic - quite the opposite. If your daughter can remember that going forward and have the confidence to trust her own instincts about men (she didn’t originally like him, and she absolutely didn’t need to be obliging and “give it a go” with him) that will be a good thing.

I would talk to her again, just say you’ve been thinking about what she told you and wondering how she feels about it and if she wants to talk more, and be led by her. Unfortunately it is almost certain that nothing would come from reporting him and the process would probably be quite traumatic, but you can hopefully help her process her own feelings around it. It’s good that she obviously trusts you so much.

ChocolateMassacre · 08/02/2022 14:09

Rape is when you have sex with someone without reasonably believing that they are consenting. Indifference as to whether someone consents could be seen as a lack of reasonable belief, regardless of whether they said 'no' or not. On balance, I would say this was rape, since your DD was sleeping and was woken up, didn't know what was going on and gave no indication to this boy that she was consenting.

user1477249785 · 08/02/2022 14:09

I'm surprised by the answers here. She didn't say yes at any point right? In which case she didn't consent. A lack of saying No doesn't equate to consent.

I hope your daughter is ok OP

AllAlongTheWitchTower · 08/02/2022 14:12

It would be having sex with someone below the age of consent due to her age. I would also say it is not consensual if it isn't enthusiastic consent, which this wasn't. So he clearly has no respect for her boundaries. Whether you could report it as rape I don't know. I'd guess not, but having sex with someone below the age of consent is still an offence.

Scattyhattie · 08/02/2022 14:15

Sounds dodgy, did he even intend to wake her. Given virginity aspect I would expect it to have been more considered event in a relationship and not him deciding times right in the middle of night when she was sleeping.

I think normal to be confused and not wish to label it, but in time she may feel consent wasn't truely given if she just froze so may need to process those feelings.

Learning about boundaries and consent is really important and dealing with this in the situation isn't as easy as theory for many women so agree with PP that some specialised counseling could be helpful along with discussing this event which must've really damaged her trust if he was a friend first.

Flakeymcwakey · 08/02/2022 14:16

There are sadly regular threads about women waking up to their DH having sex with them without consent. They are always met with a unanimous view that this was rape.

I wouldn't want to speak to how this would be handled by the police because I don't know. But I am absolutely certain that it was sex without consent.

And BTW, the idea that she could have had boundaries that prevented this, just fuck off with that

TammyOne · 08/02/2022 14:24

I don't know, legally, but morally, if one of my sons did this to a girl I would be horrified.
Consent doesn't mean not saying no, or fighting someone off. It means actively, enthusiastically engaging in something you want.
I feel rage when I think about how many boys when I was young just didn't care if I got any enjoyment, or if I really wanted to do it at all. That is not OK. I would sit her down and talk about boundaries and asserting her own wants and needs. I'm really sorry this happened to her.

CanIPleaseHaveOne · 08/02/2022 14:26

@Crossornot

The first time this boy showed that he didn’t respect your daughter’s boundaries was when he persisted in asking her out despite her saying no. This persistence is not, despite a widespread cultural narrative telling us otherwise, romantic - quite the opposite. If your daughter can remember that going forward and have the confidence to trust her own instincts about men (she didn’t originally like him, and she absolutely didn’t need to be obliging and “give it a go” with him) that will be a good thing.

I would talk to her again, just say you’ve been thinking about what she told you and wondering how she feels about it and if she wants to talk more, and be led by her. Unfortunately it is almost certain that nothing would come from reporting him and the process would probably be quite traumatic, but you can hopefully help her process her own feelings around it. It’s good that she obviously trusts you so much.

The first time this boy showed that he didn’t respect your daughter’s boundaries was when he persisted in asking her out despite her saying no. This persistence is not, despite a widespread cultural narrative telling us otherwise, romantic - quite the opposite. If your daughter can remember that going forward and have the confidence to trust her own instincts about men (she didn’t originally like him, and she absolutely didn’t need to be obliging and “give it a go” with him) that will be a good thing. THIS IN SPADES

LaBellina · 08/02/2022 14:29

She didn’t consent. That’s all that matters.

Tempusfudgeit · 08/02/2022 14:40

Was the second time enthusiastically consented to?

HirplesWithHaggis · 08/02/2022 14:55

Would that in some way mitigate the first?

TammyOne · 08/02/2022 15:01

No it bloody wouldn't. Girls at that age are coerced into all sorts, and all of us women know it, because we remember.

Thewindwhispers · 08/02/2022 15:02

Yes, assuming you are in England, it was rape.

Under English law, it is legally impossible for a child under the age of 16 to consent to sex.

Penetrative sex without consent is rape, legally. She did not consent. She didn’t have to say no (this is a common myth), it is enough thet she did not consent.

I’m so very sorry that this happened, your poor daughter.

From rapecrisis:
“What is consent?

Consenting to having another person’s penis inside your vagina, anus or mouth means agreeing to it by choice and having both the freedom and capacity to make that choice.

It is NOT consent if you or someone else was:

Asleep, unconscious, drunk, drugged or 'on' drugs.
Pressured, manipulated, tricked or scared into saying yes.
Too young or vulnerable to have the freedom and capacity to make that choice”

Talk to rapecrisis about how to proceed. If it was my daughter I’d make a police report.

BitcherOfBlakiven · 08/02/2022 15:03

A sleeping person can’t consent so yes it’s rape.

Crossornot · 08/02/2022 15:03

Also - I want to clarify my own comment to say that I absolutely do NOT think that your daughter was in any way shape or form responsible for what he did - it is all and entirely on him, and it makes me incredibly angry. The point I was trying to make was that from your account of how their relationship developed, your daughter has already taken on many of the appalling messages our culture gives out around heterosexual relationships and how women should submit to them, and the sooner you can start helping her unlearn those messages the better.

caranations · 08/02/2022 15:11

She's under 16. That makes it rape.

How old is this new boyfriend?

cupofdecaf · 08/02/2022 15:20

Canipleasehaveone I agree with everything you've said. I also think it was rape and I can say that in a professional capacity. She didn't consent.
I'd be concerned about telling her she was raped if she doesn't already see it that way though because she might not benefit from it psychologically.
She trusted him enough to sleep next to him on her own, a male that had persisted in pushing her into dating him when she wasn't sure. Perhaps you could help her work on her judgement and boundaries so she's not in that position again. I feel rubbish saying that though because it was all his fault and she shouldn't have to behave in a way to protect herself like that.
You are in a very difficult position, do you tell her to be wary of men and take precautions to not leave herself vulnerable and make it sound like she was at fault in some way (she's not), or do you leave it and hope she's more careful and choosey but not really affected by it long term.