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Teenagers

Parenting teenagers has its ups and downs. Get advice from Mumsnetters here.

Teen / Dad Battling. Who is right?

47 replies

Ginkpin · 24/11/2021 10:40

Background:
DD 16 is trickly. She has always been stubborn, headstrong and at times, rude – even when knowing that her behaviour will land her in trouble. She has horrendous mood swings (worse than your average teen I would say) and can become hysterical with rage or upset over anything. So far, so nearly normal…. She can be lovely and when her guard is down, she is sweet and vulnerable. BUT her anger is off the scale and she is often embroiled in a friendship drama. She wants security and love but pushes it away when it knocks so friends don’t know where they stand. She has told me that she hates her life and feels like she is on the edge. She hates being at home and just wants to be out with her friends (who are mostly lovely to be fair) but they do drink at parties/weekend and I know they also smoke weed sometime. DD has told me she is full of rage and thinks she would do well to talk to someone.

She is constantly at loggerheads with her dad.

DH is fiery and also stubborn. Quite old school and the product of a very traditional Mediterranean upbringing. He has no patience for teen angst/struggles and thinks everything can be solved by discipline and rules. He thinks social media is the route of all evil and that everything would be solved by banning it. I agree to an extent, but when you have a DD with massive FOMO, it’s always going to be an unwinnable battle to get them to ditch SM. He says I have caused massive problems because I’ve overruled him disciplining the DC over the years and to a degree, it’s true. I think he is ‘too much’ so have always felt obliged to go softer than I would otherwise in order to redress the balance. As a result, we have not always been aligned. Because of this (and other things) we have had many rocky patches over the years and the DC have seen him shouting and ranting and losing his temper many times. I think this has been damaging. On the flip side of this, he just wants to care for us, feed us and can be very gentle, caring and kind. He tries to talk to DD but she pushes him away. He knows his temper has not been good and has taken big and successful steps to improve things and apart from what’s just happened, things have been much better for a long time. He has also apologised to DC for being historically angry.

The dilemma
He and DD fell out very badly a couple of nights ago – DD had been vile and confrontational for several days and DH finally flipped. She told him she hated him and he disgusted her and he was a fucking pig and he told her to go to her room. She said ‘no. you can’t make me because if you do I will call social services’ and he lost it and dragged her off the sofa by her hoodie. He didn't touch her body in any way, but pulled her hood. She then picked up a glass candle and told him she wanted to smash it in his face. She also picked up nail scissors and said if he came closer, she would stab him (I can categorically say that she wouldn’t have). BUT It was the awful – the worst.

DH took her phone and has this morning told me she is grounded till Christmas. I agree that she has crossed a line, but I think that cutting her off from the support of her friends (no phone/no socialising) when she is this angry and needs an outlet, is dangerous. He says I am being too soft and that is what has got us here. I have reminded him that she has said she knows she has anger issues and wants to talk to someone and he has said that whilst he isn’t against her talking to someone in principle if that’s what she needs, she needs to try things ‘his way’ first as he thinks she needs stronger boundaries and that will make her feel better in the long run.

I say grounding her for a month and taking her phone away for effectively finally exploding after seeing him modelling a bad temper for years, is unfair. He has said that I need to wake up and finally align myself with him as he loves her and has her best interests at heart and my ‘softy softly’ approach clearly hasn’t worked. If I don’t – then we need to consider our future. He has said we need to at least try and work together as a family before reaching out to get outside help.

I am so torn. She will panic, the sob, then rage if she thinks she can’t go out for a month and hasn’t got her phone, and worse – she will think I am denying her access to counselling when she has asked for it, but maybe we should work as a family first and this is appropriate course of action. I just have no idea.

DH and I have had a massive row this morning with me stating the above and I no longer know what I think any more.

OP posts:
Hanab · 24/11/2021 10:50

Your husband and daughter need to speak to someone and take anger management classes. This should be non negotiable. They seem to be cut from the same cloth and will always be at loggerheads if it is not dealt with.

FactyFrances · 24/11/2021 11:33

Very sorry you're going through this. Have dealt with something sort of similar & know it's tough being stuck in the middle.

Definitely recommend counselling sooner rather than later. If you can't get DH to go, at least get some support for you & DD (is it available at school for her?).

It's really hard to enforce grounding with an angry 16-year-old so expect things might flare up further over the weeks ahead. Good luck.

Quartz2208 · 24/11/2021 11:48

First of - social media is what it is. There are many advantages to it but also a whole lot of disadvantages but you cannot ban it. He needs to realise that.

Secondly - they both need help with this. He cannot expect her to act in a way he does not

I also think this actually goes to the fact that she doesnt not have a secure attachment with her father - and they have never created a bond and she is lashing out. Does he ever do anything with her, spend time with her or actually show he loves her. So when he tries and she pushes him away what does he do.

Counselling definitely - and I would say hold off on punishing because that simply furthers her belief that he can get away with violence on her (because make no mistake HE assaulted her first) and indeed from what you say was the only one that actually physically reacted. And He needs to wake up to the fact that his way isnt the way either.

You are right in what you say and you need outside help now (you probably needed it years ago) and if he isnt willing he will lose his daughter. In fact he probably already has.

I have just noticed she has asked for counselling - no she needs it you cannot deny her that.

But the reality is his historical anger is at the root of this and you cannot go over to his side at all OP because that wont help your daughter

TheOccupier · 24/11/2021 11:55

You do sound a bit soft andlike you are making a lot of excuses for bad behaviour. I would go with what your DH wants to do, with the exception that DD is allowed to have counselling. Either online with device/internet access removed at end of session, or in person with one of you driving her to and from the appointment.

Magistera · 24/11/2021 11:56

Your DH should not have physically assaulted your DD, end of.

Quartz2208 · 24/11/2021 11:58

I think though TheOccupier she is making excuses for both of their bad behaviour. I think the historically angry has caused this and now he is wanting to punish her without addressing his assault.

She is aware and needs counselling

Ginkpin · 24/11/2021 12:05

OK. So... specially dealing with this incident, should there be any punishment at all to DD for the threats she made? Agree she needs support but does that mean that in the meantime 'everything is excused'? Genuinely asking - I feel completely out of my depth.

OP posts:
Magistera · 24/11/2021 12:08

I don’t think there should be punishment for threats made in response to physical violence. Your DH assaulted her - so her scared and angry response is justified.

YeOldePot · 24/11/2021 12:13

I would want to know whether she behaves this way in school with friends and teachers or whether it is reserved for home only.

Surely she is modelling his behaviour, shouting in anger rather than trying to manage her emotions. He complete over-reaction telling him she wanted to smash a glass candle holder into his face and threatening to stab him with nail scissors is extreme. Again, would she do this in school if she was told to leave a classroom?

She cannot talk to people that way, she is 16 and needs to learn to close her mouth. I think you have enabled her to talk to her Father this way because you have probably never told her that it is unacceptable to speak to him that way.

Definitely counselling, but she needs to know that there are consequences for her initial name calling and swearing at her Father.

GrumpyLivesInMyHouseNow · 24/11/2021 12:21

Banning SM and grounding a 16yr old on the run up to Xmas will only cause bigger issues. I'd work a rota for when she can have her phone and when she can go out. We have a 'no electronics rule' at certain times in the day. Rather than grounding her can her and your df do some charity work together, walk dogs at the local rescue centre for a few hours on a weekend (no phones allowed) that type of thing

It seems your dd has seen your dh and his temper and has the same temper issues he's had. By accepting his anger issues she knows it's acceptable and what 'relationships' are made of. I don't know how your dh can ask you to align with him after he's dragged a 16 yr old around the house by her clothes

Joint counselling needs to happen now, call it what you will but they both need consequences

Mumoftwoinprimary · 24/11/2021 12:31

Your husband assaulted her by dragging her by her hoodie. The “he didn’t touch her body” is a load of irrelevant bollocks. If I put a rope around your neck and pull tightly then Inhaven’t touched your body. If I plunge a knife into you then I haven’t touched you.

Her behaviour sounds poor but you can’t expect someone to be rational whilst they are being assaulted.

Quartz2208 · 24/11/2021 12:43

For the reaction to him assaulting her - he assaulted her - pulling someone off a sofa by their hoodie is a violent attack even if he didnt touch her and she reacted accordingly. Is he going to be punished for his part. DOes he even understand what he did. Do you?

The vile behaviour though needs counselling for. I suspect it is all wrapped up in their fractured relationship that his past behaviour has caused and for which she is asking for and desperately needs counselling.

As I think do you

urbanbuddha · 24/11/2021 12:44

Tell her you'll look into counselling for her. Your DH will have to apologise for losing his temper and manhandling her. Children learn by example. He has to seriously consider anger management classes. Start from there.
He manhandled her - are you going to confiscate his phone for a month? If he takes her phone for a month, what happens next time she loses her temper? Two months? A year?

PlanDeRaccordement · 24/11/2021 12:56

The only thing I agree with is that the “softly softly keep it in the family” approach has not worked for your DH or your DD. You are in a pretty powerless position though. You should support your DD to get counselling and do your best to convince your DH of the same. I don’t recommend family or joint therapy at this point, I think they each need individual therapy more urgently.

  • You can’t legally withhold counselling from your DD. She is 16 and has the legal right to call her GP and request it herself without any parental permission needed whatsoever. She is being very mature to realise she has anger issues and needs professional help.
  • Your DH while aware that he and DD have anger issues sadly has the engrained socialisation foisted on men that they should handle their own issues and that seeking any kind of mental health support is a weakness and probably useless. He needs to overcome this societal brainwashing and seek counselling for himself.
  • I agree no punishment. It was a serious incident of out of control MH and as such requires immediate support and intervention, not punishment.
TheWomandestroyed · 24/11/2021 13:02

Grounding and removing her phone will just make matters worse, she's not in prison!

Budapestdreams · 24/11/2021 13:43

I agree that punishing her at this age will make things worse. You need to be careful, although obviously her behaviour cannot just be accepted.
Why are your DH and your DD being treated differently for acting in the same way?
You all need support from school and some kind of therapy to help you sort through your emotions.
I bet your DD feels unloved, possibly even hated by her father. That's a horrible feeling for a teenager.
I think this is all solvable but you will need outside support and time. You and your DH will have to work together and agree on how to parent.
You already understand that she wants love and security, you just need to work out how to help her actually feel loved and secure.

NightmareSlashDelightful · 24/11/2021 14:13

This sounds really difficult, I'm sorry you're having to deal with this.

I wonder if your husband is externalising his own sense of 'injured child' weakness here he sees failure to control your daughter as a weakness, is what I mean and trying to pin the resulting disaster on you and on her, because his self-esteem is so fragile that he cannot accept any blame himself.

Conversely, your daughter is modelling your husband because she's seen him use his temper to dominate situations in the family home for years. If it works for him, why can't it work for me will be her reasoning (almost certainly subconscious). This could be the root of her mood swings and anger issues.

Your family dynamic is unhealthy, it seems to me. Your husband's rages have long dictated your family structure, and how you individually respond to conflict.

The thing is, he might apologise now but this kind of damage is done, and laid down deep in the brain, when children are small. (Sadly I have experience of this from my own upbringing.) Your daughter's anger and resentment at her father has been brewing and building for years. She probably feels frightened of him -- although that fear might be an echo of when she was much younger and genuinely threatened by him.

She also perhaps feels like she wants to protect you but doesn't know how to go about it.

It feels a bit knife-edge at the moment and needs de-escalating. At some point he will more seriously assault her, and/or she will attack him with the nail scissors. No good will come of either of these outcomes.

But his tactic of trying to keep it 'in the family' is just kicking the can down the road. It speaks of an upbringing where problems were brushed under the carpet, even shamed, rather than confronted and dealt with. This only leads to more anger, more control issues, more fear. It is an ever-decreasing circle.

You say you don't know what to think or do any more. But your instinct seems to be to support your daughter, and get her the external help she is asking for and needs. Even if that means going against your husband.

BonnesVacances · 24/11/2021 14:38

Agree with most of the replies on this.

Is DH willing to accept a punishment for losing his temper and dragging DD off the sofa? Or is anger management only required from one party?

If your DD has asked for counselling, she should be given it. Poor girl.

Beamur · 24/11/2021 14:45

Your DH started this by assaulting her. Frankly he should apologise.
She has then, understandably, escalated the violence.
Neither of them are in the right and a month long curfew is hugely disproportionate.
He is bigger and stronger and in theory, more mature so actually his transgression is worse.

Nomoreusernames1244 · 24/11/2021 14:45

Big issue for me, is that by taking her phone away if she leaves or goes out with friends anyway, you have no way of contacting her or making sure she’s ok.

Having said that I know my dd who is similar behaves better when we control her phone use. Social media does get in their headspace. We have utilised screen time controls now so it limits her access. It is a moveable goal, we can cut off social media but allow netflix etc, or shut it down completely. It goes off between 10 and 7 every night.

If we think she’s getting too involved again it gets reduced. If her behaviour is good and she’s done her work around the house, and asks nicely, or gives us good reason we will extend it.

But we always have access to its location.

RB68 · 24/11/2021 14:53

for me your softly softly HAS worked as its not your relationship with your daughter that is a problem. I would suggest they are very alike and in fact your DD seems to understand herself better than your DH does.

RB68 · 24/11/2021 14:54

Oh and the grabbing clothes and dragging around is no different to shoving and pushing ie not acceptable

PlanDeRaccordement · 24/11/2021 15:12

She has always been stubborn, headstrong and at times, rude – even when knowing that her behaviour will land her in trouble. She has horrendous mood swings (worse than your average teen I would say) and can become hysterical with rage or upset over anything

On side note, my autistic DD17 can be like this along with powerful sense of what is fair or unfair. Might want to consider autism assessment for your DD. The rage/upset over “anything” could actually be meltdowns.

Ginkpin · 24/11/2021 15:16

@NightmareSlashDelightful

This sounds really difficult, I'm sorry you're having to deal with this.

I wonder if your husband is externalising his own sense of 'injured child' weakness here he sees failure to control your daughter as a weakness, is what I mean and trying to pin the resulting disaster on you and on her, because his self-esteem is so fragile that he cannot accept any blame himself.

Conversely, your daughter is modelling your husband because she's seen him use his temper to dominate situations in the family home for years. If it works for him, why can't it work for me will be her reasoning (almost certainly subconscious). This could be the root of her mood swings and anger issues.

Your family dynamic is unhealthy, it seems to me. Your husband's rages have long dictated your family structure, and how you individually respond to conflict.

The thing is, he might apologise now but this kind of damage is done, and laid down deep in the brain, when children are small. (Sadly I have experience of this from my own upbringing.) Your daughter's anger and resentment at her father has been brewing and building for years. She probably feels frightened of him -- although that fear might be an echo of when she was much younger and genuinely threatened by him.

She also perhaps feels like she wants to protect you but doesn't know how to go about it.

It feels a bit knife-edge at the moment and needs de-escalating. At some point he will more seriously assault her, and/or she will attack him with the nail scissors. No good will come of either of these outcomes.

But his tactic of trying to keep it 'in the family' is just kicking the can down the road. It speaks of an upbringing where problems were brushed under the carpet, even shamed, rather than confronted and dealt with. This only leads to more anger, more control issues, more fear. It is an ever-decreasing circle.

You say you don't know what to think or do any more. But your instinct seems to be to support your daughter, and get her the external help she is asking for and needs. Even if that means going against your husband.

All of this resonates. All of it.

She is on her way home now and my stomach is in knots. Of course my instinct is to protect her and get her any support she needs, but SOME of what he says makes sense to me as well.

Ultimately, my loyalty and energy will go to her but I am broken by so much relentless conflict. And she makes things so difficult by throwing all my kindness and efforts back in my face. I am just out of hospital following surgery and I am just fucking exhausted, depleted and realise I am no longer to nail the jelly of peace to the walls any more.

OP posts:
DriftingBlue · 24/11/2021 15:17

Your DH physically assaulted her. Grabbing the hoodie is still assault. She should not be punished for any threats she made after that point.

Your teen needs counseling. Give her an outlet to deal with her angst without parental judgment.

I don’t know what to do with your DH.

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