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Teenagers

Parenting teenagers has its ups and downs. Get advice from Mumsnetters here.

School exclusion

57 replies

Maisy6565 · 21/09/2021 19:20

My child was excluded permanently from school today for spitting. I know spitting is absolutely disgusting... Its appalling. But the kid he spat at punched him in retaliation. I don't blame him. But how can it be fair that my kid who spat gets expelled but the kid who punched him did not. My child has no previous record for bad behaviour.. Only historical problems with he same boy. I'm not defending spitting at all... But doesn't expulsion seem a bit extreme? I've also found out you can appeal but not even the omnibus can make the school reverse their decision even if the omnibus disagrees with the school!!

OP posts:
lechatnoir · 21/09/2021 19:54

Whilst spitting is disgusting, I do think permanent exclusion is completely ott for a first offence and I too would be fighting it.

SE13Mummy · 21/09/2021 19:58

Did the exclusion letter you received from the school specify that it was a permanent exclusion? As you've said, spitting is disgusting but it does seem like an extreme reaction for a truly isolated incident. Headteachers can only permanently exclude, “in response to a serious breach or persistent breaches of the school’s behaviour policy;andwhere allowing the pupil to remain in school would seriously harm the education or welfare of the pupil or others in the school”. If the behaviour policy has been updated to include spitting as a serious breach or as something which would harm the welfare of others, it may be hard to contest the exclusion. The policy should be available on the school website so it's worth checking.

Wafflethefuckinwonderdog · 21/09/2021 19:58

I think immediate permanent exclusion is harsh but we are still dealing with Covid, so perhaps that's why. What punishment is the other kid getting for punching back?

WishingYouAMerryChristmasToo · 21/09/2021 19:58

@Maisy6565

It is his first offence.. Why do you think I'm bothering to ask if it wasn't? There's some really judgy comments... Lots of speculations. It is his first offense. He did something disgusting. I mist thought it was over the top. Clearly public opinion is otherwise and the majority say he deserves it. Thanks. I'll now attempt to delete this thread!
Absolutely is not his ‘first offence’ - don’t believe it. Likewise spitting comes in all forms and sizes. Coughing and then spitting at someone is beyond foul - why the hell did he do it? Picking on someone vulnerable ? Forget the other behaviour.

Historical problems is that any way of saying you le child has been bullying the other for years?

Spitting is an assault and a criminal offence. Do it outside - they would have a criminal conviction on top. Count yourself lucky it is just an exclusion and the other parents aren’t pressing charges

BamberGascoine · 21/09/2021 19:59

Sorry I really don’t have time right now to rtft but will when I het home. I just wanted to mention that new guidance came in due to covid. Was he excluded under these guidelines because of the risk of infecting others? I work in a school and there hasn’t been a permanent exclusion in a LOOOONG time, managed moves and moving to an alternative provision are usually tried first.

captainpillows · 21/09/2021 19:59

Of course it warranted to exclude him
Imagine if I spat at you?
Generally a good person but you'd would me up over time
So I spat at you
Out of the blue
Should I go unpunished?
Of course not, it's disgraceful behaviour
Rose tinted glasses much!

LouiseBelchersBunnyEars · 21/09/2021 20:00

I’d fucking punch someone who spat in my face as well, fuck that shit

EmmaGellerGreen · 21/09/2021 20:01

It would be permanent in DS school where I am a governor. Not only is it utterly disgusting, it breaks a very specific rule around Covid infection control.

steppemum · 21/09/2021 20:06

There are very strict rules around exclusions, so if this is a state school, they do not sound as if they have followed the correct procedure.

It is pretty difficult to permanantly exclude on the basis of one offence. If you did it would have to be a big offence eg violence (knife crime etc)

You need to get proper advice if you want to fight it. But to start with, you need to get the school to provide the paper work. If they don't then that in itself is breaking the rules around exclusions.

Mombie2021 · 21/09/2021 20:08

@EmmaGellerGreen

It would be permanent in DS school where I am a governor. Not only is it utterly disgusting, it breaks a very specific rule around Covid infection control.
Good. I hope this is the case with every school and that OP can’t appeal.
steppemum · 21/09/2021 20:11

bloody hell there are some seriously vindictive people on here.

Spitting is foul, but does it warant ruining this kids life on first offence?

No.

So unless there is a back story, this is veyr over the top, and all you screaming for punishment are very like a baying pack of hounds.

Teenagers do occasionally do stupid things which are out of character. They need to be dealt with. In a proportionate way. this does not feel proportionate.

Maybe there is a back story/history of bullying. Then that needs to be taken into account. But I really hope that none of you have a kid that does something bloody stupid once.

christinarossetti19 · 21/09/2021 20:12

OP, ignore if you can the nasty, judgemental comments on this thread.

I agree with you inasmuch that permanent exclusion seems very harsh for a first, non-violent offence BUT certainly my children's schools updated their behaviour policy in light of Covid and placed any behaviour like spitting/deliberately coughing in someone's face/pretending to have covid in the most serious type of bad behaviour category.

I hope that your ds gets into another school quickly and it's a good experience for him.

VippingQ · 21/09/2021 20:20

And spitting has been a much much bigger issue since the beginning of the pandemic.

People have been arrested and charged with assault for it.

NailsNeedDoing · 21/09/2021 20:23

It is right that spitting is considered as serious an assault as a punch.

GuyFawkesDay · 21/09/2021 20:24

There's absolutely a back story we aren't seeing.

Unless it's something very, very serious (drugs in school, arson etc) it's highly unlikely a kid would be PEd for a first offence. We had one last year making the most vile, slanderous IG pages about teachers in school. Got 5 days FTE and final warning as was their first offence and otherwise a "model student".

So nah, it's not the first offence. Not a chance.

MissCruellaDeVil · 21/09/2021 20:30

Does seem a little harsh, but guessing there is more to the story...

Simonjt · 21/09/2021 20:31

If he didn’t spit in someones face he wouldn’t have been punched.

It would be nice if a certain poster didn’t use this thread to spread incorrect information about HIV.

peewitsandy · 21/09/2021 20:37

I feel for you O.P and really do sympathize with you .

However, under the current Covid circumstances spitting in someone's face could be on par with pulling a knife on a person !

Thus, even if the school had not expelled your son forthwith, it will be impossible for your son to enter that school again. I also fear for both you and your sons safety, because there is a possibility of a hate mob mentality towards both of you occurring from pupils and parents.
Consequently I think you need to be looking at new school , some distance from the current one..

lunar1 · 21/09/2021 20:37

If a child did that in our school they would be expelled, it's an independent school if that makes a difference. There are some hard lines that they won't tolerate being crossed.

I don't think the other child should be punished for retaliating to being spat on.

spooney21 · 21/09/2021 20:41

Whilst spitting is disgusting, it does not warrant a permanent exclusion. If this really was a First offence then appeal the decision to the board of governors. They do sometimes get over turned.

WeAllHaveWings · 21/09/2021 20:52

Spitting is disgusting and Tbh I wouldnt be wasting anytime trying to get the other pupil punished for reacting because I wouldnt blame him.

Permanent exclusion if it is genuinely a first offence from an otherwise well behaved pupil seems extreme. What did the school say?

Also what age is he? The older he is the more unacceptable the behaviour.

CorvusPurpureus · 21/09/2021 21:03

Hugely unlikely (I'm a teacher) that a one off incident of assault - & spitting is assault - would result in permanent exclusion of an otherwise model student.

It's possible that it was seen as such an egregious & revolting act that it's an instant fixed term - not permanent -: exclusion, & frankly, that would be fair enough.

I teach a spitter. He has some serious SEN & additional behavioural needs & we have a risk assessment in place, because he does put people at risk when he gets frustrated & gobs at his peers or at teachers, which happens roughly every couple of weeks.

He's aware that it's unacceptable behaviour but he really, genuinely, struggles not to lose it, & when he does, he spits at people. Given the chance, he bites them.

& he quite often finds himself in the inclusion unit, which he understands. He knows that he can't be learning alongside the rest of his class if he's spitting at/biting people, & he's aware that he's messed up. He's improving & getting his head round it.

Tbh, OP, if there's a potential additional SEN reason why your dc spat at a classmate, then that's worth investigating. If there isn't but it was an unprecedented moment of rage, then that needs looking at too, because it's honestly a disproportionate response to being annoyed by someone. If there's a history of your dc behaving aggressively, then you should have been involved in discussion with school about the behaviour long before this.

I would be very much querying a permanent exclusion.

peewitsandy · 21/09/2021 21:15

Corvus: I understand about SEN and likelihood of behaviour characteristics being displayed through frustrations (due to being diagnosed HFA myself).

However, what is going to happen if said child catches Covid and starts spitting all over the classroom possibly infecting pupils and yourself with Covid.

If the child is in mainstream education, it cannot be acceptable under any circumstances for one pupil to put all other students and teachers at such risk.

Blueskythinking123 · 21/09/2021 21:23

@Maisy6565 in your situation I would be asking to speak with someone from the senior leadership team. If this is a first offence I'd be asking if the school would facilitate a managed move to another school. I would base this request on his usual good behaviour. My concern would be that he will be offered a PRU, if he doesn't get a managed move.

CorvusPurpureus · 21/09/2021 21:50

@peewitsandy

Corvus: I understand about SEN and likelihood of behaviour characteristics being displayed through frustrations (due to being diagnosed HFA myself).

However, what is going to happen if said child catches Covid and starts spitting all over the classroom possibly infecting pupils and yourself with Covid.

If the child is in mainstream education, it cannot be acceptable under any circumstances for one pupil to put all other students and teachers at such risk.

Quite. Hence there being a risk assessment.

I can't go into specifics about one child, but it's really problematic to exclude a kid who does behave like this occasionally BUT has previously identified additional needs.

We really can't just tell him to go home & come back at some unspecified future point when Covid stops being a thing. He'd probably be retirement age by then, apart from anything else.

Also, he's in a mainstream secondary school. Ever tried getting teenagers to social distance socially in school? Firstly, they can't. The infrastructure in classrooms isn't set up for it. Secondly, they won't, & every break time & lunch hour consists of futile attempts to police teenagers to stop hugging each other, sharing food, & clustering together to gossip.

Obviously, if 'Adam' spits at someone he's removed from his peers for the day. But in covid terms, he's quite a bit less of a worry than the year group weekend party that we certainly can't control. Or the school buses. Or, well, unventilated rooms of 20 odd of his year group every lesson.

His behaviour is definitely an additional problem, but as a covid risk, I'd probably rather be spat at by Adam in our teaching group of 6, than share a classroom with no fresh air circulation for an hour with my perfectly behaved top set class of 24 in a different year group.

Anyway...it's unacceptable. Spitting is grim. But I think OP should definitely seek clarification about the circumstances of this exclusion.

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