Sudden terrible behaviour once started high school

[WinoLino]

I hope this isn't long, I'll try to be brief and not drip feed but so many feelings floating around right now.

My DD turned 13 in Sep. She lives with me and my partner 50% of the time and with her dad 50%. We also have a son of 9 with same arrangements. My partner has two sons who also have same arrangement with us and their mum.

DD has always been very compliant at infant and junior school. Quiet, gets on with her work, no issues. She then starts high school and practically overnight becomes an issue behaviour wise. Starts off silly, chatting etc. We spoke to her at home on numerous occasions although she could never give any information as to why she was being silly, disruptive, chatting etc. We put it down to the bad influence of another girl and the big change of going to high school.

Over time it gets worse and she is throwing paper at other students, ripping pages out of her books, being rude to teachers. We have an app where we are told hour by hour what she is doing. At home we start to remove her phone, (although she isn't on it much), and uses it to put her meditation on her speaker at night so doesn't really work as a punishment from that point of view. We can't stop her seeing her friends as she doesn't really see them out of school (has done once), although we have tried to use positive reinforcement and encourage them to come over if she has a better week at school.

We noticed that she seemed to hold it together at school if she does more exercise so we tried to do loads more with her. This has been harder as it's got colder and darker. Interestingly her PE teacher raves about how good she is behaviour and ability wise.

The school report she "is a girl of two halves". Can be lovely and is very bright. However can also be so rude and yesterday said "not safe to be in school" as she chucked hand sanitiser at someone. She is adamant this was not her and we are in the process of getting CCTV checked.

I spoke to GP when all this started as Tourette's is in family and also wanted autism explored as school said she displays no empathy. I'm not sure about this but she can be a little detached and finds affection and eye contact hard. However not much evidence of much else being explored at school apart from the fact that she now has a well-being officer who speaks to her once a week. They also put a referral into a mental health team although I have explained that they won't assess for NDD.

I've been through everything with her, asked if she is unhappy with living arrangements, does she want them changed etc, all she says is "no I'm fine" and if you ask about behaviour at school she says "I don't know".

I've been angry, sad, compassionate, I've tried to ignore it, tried to just focus on the positives, more exercise, tried consequences at home etc etc, all to no avail.

At home she's lovely, kind, helpful and mostly a joy to be with. When she is due on her period she can be a little moody but nothing spectacular. Her behaviour at school does get worse around her period. She struggles in crowds and shops, finds it "stressful".

We are thinking about de registering her and trying to teach at home but this is a huge step and one I want to consider carefully. Expecting a call from the school at 11 to discuss a plan forward.

Any advice? I'm really struggling and more importantly, so is she, and I really need to check other's opinions in case I'm not seeing the wood for the trees. Thanks in advance

Read the Highly Sensitive Child. She might not be autistic but if she struggles with crowds and shops she will be being overwhelmed. She sounds anxious to me, and is opting out by misbehaving.

The fact that she is better when she exercises suggests it even more as she is getting rid of adrenaline.

Not every anxious child has ASD. Anxiety is a symptom of ASD but the two are not mutually exclusive. She could just be highly anxious with some processing difficulties.

I speak from experience😖

Thank you, I'm now going to see if I can find that book.

How was her behaviour at home after school in primary and infant?

I think you should look at ASD with PDA lots of info. on the PDA society. Often children with this presentation fall apart when they go to secondary, the demands socially and otherwise placed upon them are just too much and they are overhwhelmed. Honestly, it screams this for me... including different behaviour at home and at school.

I am not trying to minimise or excuse her behaviour at all BUT when my eldest first started at secondary school his behaviour also took a massive downward turn. He’d always been a very level, straightforward and studious boy who’d never been in trouble at primary school. Then in year 7 all this changed. He got into several fights, his school work was poor etc. It was a very difficult time. Nothing had changed at home, no obvious stressors / triggers that we could think of. I do wonder if he has mild social anxiety though.

We had several meetings with the HoY7 who was fantastic. He was put on “report” for a couple of weeks so all his teachers knew to keep an eye on him. We talked a lot at home about feelings and emotions etc but also that this behaviour was absolutely not going to be tolerated by us or by the school.

It didn’t happen overnight. There were still some issues right at the start of Year 8 but they were quickly ironed out then of course covid happened .

He’s now in Year 9 and so far he’s far more settled. He’s working really hard and was fabulously diligent during Lockdown (which I was NOT expecting) to the point he’s been moved into the accelerated maths group. He’s mature and aware enough now to reflect on year 7 and says that he feels so much happier and relaxed at school these days. As I said, I think anxiety played a part in all of this. I also think that in Year 7 so many hierarchies and pecking orders are being established.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that in my (admittedly limited) experience but also from chatting to my friends, Year 7 is a tough year for many children and that’s without the added issues of 6 months at home and all the covid restrictions and issues. Friends who are secondary teachers are far more stressed and anxious which I’m guessing can be picked up by the children. It’s been an incredibly tough time for everyone.

Sorry. I’m rambling now. I do want to say that I think you sound like you’re doing an amazing job with your daughter and I wish you all the best.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow Absolutely fine actually

@sosotired1 I've looked it up and going to have a thorough read, thank you so much

@MrsCrosbyNRTB Thanks for this, so helpful to hear from others that have come out the other side. Also thanks for saying it sounds like I'm doing a good job, that actually made me want to cry 😢

Just spoken to school and her dad. I feel we are going round in circles with the school but they have finally agreed to arrange a meeting for next week. She is in inclusion all day today with a detention for an hour after school ☹️

I’ve been a secondary teacher for 25 years. A bumpy y7 isn’t a life sentence. They often change.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow It's helpful to hear this. One of her teachers said she won't be able to turn this around now. 😡 She's in year 8 now though 🧐

Hmmm they often get better in Year 10. Nice and encouraging of her teacher to say that🤔. Teachers are meant to encourage potential not condem. How old was this teacher? That’s a really bad and unprofessional thing to say!

I’d never say it, nor would my colleagues.

And Year 8 are still little. Does she behave in any lessons? If she does what’s different about those lessons?

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow They just seem to want to punish her, but it's not working. So she gets a D20 or D60 most days. She's having inclusions fairly regularly too. They say she can behave but there is no pattern to it. Often refuses to wear her mask and it escalates from there. But I've noticed Wednesdays are bad for her. PE is pretty perfect. She needs her exercise and her teacher really likes her. When she is told off at school it's like she doesn't think it's fair so will often go and approach that teacher later to argue her point. I've told her so many times not to do this but still she does. I go from feeling angry to really sad and sorry for her, so hard.

Does she have a time out pass? This can diffuse issues

What happens on Wednesdays? Can she do exercise before school? On a trampoline? Just asking because years ago l taught a child with ADHD. He used to do 1/2 an hour on the trampoline before school.

Has she been assessed for ADHD? It can present differently in forms. They can be sort of dreamy and off task, but it can also present in the way you are talking about.

How are the school helping? I don’t mean disciplining, but helping support her with this? I’d maybe raise ADHD?

And there is probably a pattern if you look hard enough. This is why I’m wondering what’s wrong with Wednesdays.

I wondered if by Wednesday she is really worn out with trying hard to "be good" but I'll take a closer look at her timetable. The school keep trying to argue that it's the job of the GP to diagnose but of course the GP says the school need to do it. We are having a meeting next week with SENCO also. I have mentioned ASD and ADHD. We don't have a trampoline but she does exercise on a Tuesday night with her dad. Her hormones don't help either.

Also, does your school have class charts? I just hate it, being updated literally every hour. I mainly ignore it now until the end of the day as it's so anxiety provoking watching her her red marks all the time ☹️

I'll ask about a time out pass at the meeting. Noting these suggestions down on my phone, thank you all 🙂🙂

Class charts? Is that where the behaviour is constantly updated by app?

Just ignore it. You know she has problems, why beat yourself up even more?

It is REALLY significant that you think by Wednesday she is exhausted. She is struggling to contain or cope with something.

Don’t let them boss you around. Go to the GO and school and insist on a referral/assessment. The school have no money so will make it as difficult as possible. But by law you are entitled to one. Just stand your ground and don’t back down.

You could also pay privately for a referral.

GP!

And take it up with the LEA too. Don’t back down. No one wants to do assessments. They are too expensive, but don’t give up.

When there seems to be 'no rhyme or reason' it is often because they are pretty good at masking (and coped in a smaller setting with less demands etc.) and then it all builds up and they can't manage it. A good teacher in one lesson can make or break the day. She is communicating very clearly that she isn't coping with something.

It does sound like she is really struggling with being at school.

Does she have a favourite teacher (maybe PE teacher) who she could talk to about any concerns etc (the school maybe able to facilitate this).

In your conversation with the school I would try to get them to work with you and suggest ideas how to get to the root of the problem first, rather than them just constantly punish her.

Best of luck, it must be very worrying for you.

Is this the school for her? They don’t sound supportive tbh. Are there other local options rather than home schooling? (I’m not anti HS it’s just a bit of a nightmare given your 50/50 split with her father.)

I hate schools that just punish and punish. That approach is clearly not working for your dd so why persist with it.

My first thought was adhd too. I really hope you have some success with Gp/school in sorting out an assessment.

Thanks everyone. Wow this is so helpful and supportive. I wondered if I would be told I was being crap with her 😟

Yes @ArseInTheCoOpWindow class charts. Yes you're right, I need to ignore it. That's what I did yesterday but then felt I needed to look when they emailed to say she had a detention. I'm trying not to let them boss me around and am getting more assertive as time goes on and things that they've said they would do don't transpire

@sosotired1 this is exactly what happens, something breaks and then it spirals and she "loses it" as the school say. I agree she is communicating something

@scrivette it is really worrying. She just isn't getting an education at the moment. She does like her PE teacher but tbh she won't open up with anyone really. It's almost impossible to get her to talk about how she feels. She will say "I don't know" and shrug her shoulders and later when pushed she will cry. But nothing. I don't think she understands it enough to be able to talk about it

@LeaveMyDamnJam I don't think I'd just that school though, I think it's really hard in high schools to be able to treat the pupil as an individual as the classes are too big and busy. I could be wrong though and we have considered a different school but she is very against leaving her friends. Of course it won't be her choice if it carries on like this though

@pasanda I totally agree. I've said to them, above all else, is it working??? They're like, "no not really" 😕

You say she does exercise with her Dad on a Tuesday. I know exercise is important, but it would be interesting to see what happens if that is shifted to another night one week, or cancelled? Could she be exhausted on Wednesday from that?

To be honest @Lougle the exercise isn't that routined. She tends to do more at her dad's than at mine as he needs exercise to function, (I think she is similar but not as motivated 😂). He will take her to his brother's home gym which can be sanitised. They will run together, play football and box (just pad work). At mine she might go for a quick sprint every now and again and we cycle when we can but it's hard if she has a D60 after school as it's then getting dark when we get in and our cycle route is through woodland which I don't fancy in the dark. I think she is exhausted on Wednesdays because she's tried to hold it together for two days which seems to be her limit