Angry DD 15

[Sweetchillijam]

This has been going on for months tried hard to keep communication channels open, tell her I love her, care about her, tried to talk to her many many times (in the car, during a walk, over a cake, in the house downstairs, in her bedroom, through her bedroom door etc) tried numerous ways of understanding and dealing with her bad attitude, laziness, dirtiness, disinterest in her appearance, couldn’t care less attitude to GCSE’s and school work, hatred and lack of respect for me etc etc but getting absolutely nowhere. Over the past few months I have wondered whether she maybe have autism, is affected by hormones/mood swings, stress with school covid and clarity on GCSE’s, what is bothering her, does she have an eating disorder, is she being bullied at school, online, is she depressed, gay, wants to be a man and tried different ways and racked my brains about how to help her but she doesn’t want to be helped and just maintains that she is fine hates me and wants me to go away. She refuses to go to the doctors or see a counsellor and refuses to admit their is anything wrong. She plays little or no part in family life we only see her at mealtimes or when she is rummaging for a snack. All she seems to care about is her best friend, her phone, ipad and chocolate. I am at my wits end with her. attitude and her bad behaviour on a daily basis it is really starting to affect my sleep, my mood, my self esteem, mental health our family life and my relationship with DH. She never ever apologises for her behaviour.
Last night I told her I would no longer be giving her lift to school (its only a 20 minute walk anyway. I started this to ensure she got to school ok after some ex friends were bullying her in year 8 and its just continued) she often doesn’t speak in the car or is angry, shouting, criticising me and swearing and never says thank you for the lift. I am day off today and after a rotten sleep I am staying in bed out of the way (first time ever). I always ensure her and DS are awake and up for school everyday (although they both have alarm clocks they have stopped using them) but after an awful nights sleep I said to DH he can deal with her this morning. I heard her creep downstairs and set off for school without any breakfast or saying bye to myself or DH (just to wind me us up and try and make me feel guilty and worried all day). Her bedroom is a complete pig sty with dirty underwear strewn about, damp towels on the floor, snack papers, crisp packets, crockery, stationary, schoolwork, clean clothes not put away etc. Any advice here please? DH says I/we should minimise our interactions with her and speak minimally to her and let her come to us.

I think your DH is probably right. The more you chase her, the more she withdraws.
My DSD had a grim bedroom. I put a basket in for laundry, said I would only wash what was in there and collected it when I was doing a wash. Then closed the door. Nudged her to change the bedding once a week and maybe once a month to tidy up and vacuum. Both she and DSS would comply.
Personally with teens I think you need a combination of hard boundaries and soft touches. Hard boundaries around rudeness and how they speak to me (and others) and softer ones around mess, snacks and downtime. I think teens actually need deeply emphatic parenting and for them to know that whilst you may have certain expectations from them, that you also have their back and will love and support them.
Keep avenues of communication open but it is up to her how much she wants to talk to you.

I could have written your post word for word OP!
My Dd exactly the same. I also told mine that she wouldn’t be getting lifts to school anymore (25 minute walk, so perfectly doable for her), after she was shouting at me in the car yesterday, and she stormed out of the house slamming the door behind her!
My DH like yours thinks we shouldn’t interact much with her, but it’s hard as we’re living in the same house and she’s still our child.

Thanks both. I had children in my late thirties so the teenage years and menopause is a really hard mix.
We don’t live in a massive house and have a big family wash basket on the landing. We have explained umpteen times to DD that any washing not in the washing basket won’t get washed (but we always end up relenting and collecting dirty clothes from her bedroom floor). Today I am so fed up I’m not going to do this anymore. I am also finally so tired that I don’t have the energy for yet another discussion tonight with her which will no doubt end up in her shouting and being awful to me.
I am going to catch up with a friend today who had very similar problems with her adopted daughter.

@ Lacrossefan1 💐

How is she academically doing? Any issues with school? Does sound like normal teenage behaviour to an extent. My daughter was like this but lots if problems with school work/ rudeness to teachers, school refusing. She is very academic & winged it through with good GCSEs. Started college loads of issues not doing the work, not getting up, not being organised etc. She has just been diagnosed with ADHD & is in meds & is like a different child. They think she possibly is on the spectrum also (her brother is severely autistic). Any doubts get her checked. It was missed when she was 13 initially by CAHMS

Is there anyone else like another trusted adult who she could talk to. Like a family friend or relative?
They just don’t want to talk to parents sometimes
Agree it would be good to get an idea of what’s going on at school if you can. Perhaps keeping an eye on what she’s doing on her devices may give you a clue. This is very tricky at this age though as they could view it as invading their privacy.

Hugs to you OP
It is so hard. My mental health has been suffering over the last year because of my Dd
The pandemic hasn’t helped as none of us our usual outlets. So on the weekends we are very much under each other’s feet. She’s constantly on her phone too, and gets in a foul mood when we try to limit her time on it

What does the school say? Have they complained about her behaviour or raised any concerns?

Could it be she's using home as a safe space to vent in, but is described as well behaved at school. My DS does that, they seem to be talking about a different child.

I think I'd probably give her some space and wait for her to come to you.

I survived this. You will too.
Recognise that teen girls can be arch manipulators and have had 15 years of close study to work out how to do it.
You and dh need to agree. Just stop the lifts. LET HER BE LATE. I wish I had realised that sooner. The embarrassment in front of her peers is far more effective than anything you can do.
Show her the washing machine(whatsapp a link to the online instructions)
It's a bit like sleep training a baby.

Prior to Covid at parents eve’s the only criticism her teachers had was that she was too quiet in class. Always did her homework on time but I think minimum effort (with homework and any revision) as she didn’t want to stand out or draw attention to herself (good or bad).
I contacted the school during covid asked the teachers not to say anything or approach DD in any way about my getting in touch. But several of them made a ‘pigs ear of it’ and told DD I had been in touch (which made her even angrier and more distrustful and hateful towards me (if that was even possible)!!
School had mocks a week ago and they got a certificate in English and Maths at the weekend. She is in a low English class and the 2nd top Maths class in a very large Comp and only came out with a 3 in English and a 4 in Maths. Apparently all the mock results were low according to DD. But she is frustrated and angry as she has a high achieving brother in the year above at another school who got his GCSE’s for free!
Her school seem to be paying lip service to putting on extra revision classes this last week in form time and after school. But only 5 days in the week (and more subjects) and (with Maths they held 3 ability maths classes for a large Comp year in three ordinary sized classrooms and told the kids to please themselves which one they attended)?!? The corridors were cramped with kids pushing and shoving before the teacher arrived and not enough seats in the middle class or the top class, so DD and her friend didn’t want to go to the foundation one so went into town.
I think its all getting a bit much for DD so she’s lashing out at me.

No trusted adult family member or friend unfortunately. DD isn’t big on conversation at the best of times. My worry is she keeps saying we don’t care about her and now finally because of the way she is behaving and the contempt she has shown for us. She has gone off to school with no breakfast and no dinner (as she stayed in her bedroom until seconds before she sneaked off). So we in effect proving her right and appearing not to care about her, which I hate.

Can you speak to your DDs best friends mum? About your DD. Maybe DD friend can have a word with her.

Having boundaries and being consistent is showing you care.

I can only speak to the washing laundry. It took about 10 days for my dd to take me seriously when I said I wasn't picking hers up anymore. I guess she ran out of clean clothes as she started wearing stuff she hadn't worn in months.

Can she walk to school with a mate? She might like that.

It's actually quite normal teenage issues. Set reasonable boundaries then stick to them is my advice. Eg I said eating together was non negotiable, grandparent visiting again no option but going to friends for Sunday lunch or long walks with the dog they could opt out of. I have them laundry baskets and told them to do their own washing including sheets, I did prompt for this. A few years on everything is fine

DD isn’t friends with any of the girls from her Primary school. In their rush to be popular and DD being a bit young for her age and not going with the herd she kind of got left behind. I have met her two best friends mums once briefly at a school concert but I don’t have their phone numbers or know them well enough to call round. DD goes to a large comp in the centre of town so all her friends live in completely different directions.

I would dial down on the way you describe her problems first. Mood swings are normal at this age: you really don't need to come up with all these possible (and quite dramatic scenarios). It is normal for 15yos to go through an anti-social phase just because they're 15. And don't forget, on top of this bog standard mix of teenage hormones and fear for the future (will I make a good enough adult? will I be able to do adulting when all I hear around me is that only people who rock their exams stand any chances?), she is also dealing with all the stresses of a pandemic.

Absolutely clamp down on rudeness- do not accept being sworn at or called names. But equally don't think of it as hatred: it is rudeness.

For the rest, try to detach a bit and you will probably find yourself getting less angry. Don't think of the way she presents now as signs of the adult she will be. Pick your battles. Concentrate on what is unacceptable behaviour and let the rest go. Don't think of behaviour as signs of the inner her- if she is rude to you, don't think of it as hatred: think of it as rudeness. She is allowed to be angry about life without you taking it as a personal slur, but she must learn to manage her anger without rudeness. That is the bit where you come in.

If she doesn't get her laundry washed- how much of a problem is that to you? Do you have to know about it? Do you have to get upset about it? Probably not. Let it go. When her friends start telling her she smells, she deals with it.

If she leaves in the morning without saying goodbye, yes it's a bit rude but not a huge problem. If you leave it, chances are she will start talking again soon.

If she spends time in her room and doesn't engage much in family life, that is normal for her age. In more happy times, she would have been spending a lot of time out with her mates and then (hopefully) revising her homework- you wouldn't have seen much of her then either. She is getting ready to leave home and that is a natural process. It is also natural that she should be angry at all the normal 15yo freedom she is missing out on. Just don't let her call you names.

When faced with her swearing and nastiness like telling me to go f myself or calling me a retard etc what are you meant to do we have tried telling her off, talking to our extensively and saying that it is not acceptable way to speak to your parents etc. We can’t stop her going out as she rarely goes out anyway maybe once a fortnight at most, she doesn’t get pocket money (but thats another story), she has a bank card with christmas and birthday money on, she refuses to do absolutely anything to help in the home. The only consequence I think she would care about is if we removed her technology but she would turn around and say we were stopping her do her homework. Turning off the Wifi isn’t an option either due to the way DH has her phone set up.

I often found less was more when it came to discipline. That a deep-voiced I will NOT be spoken to like that often worked better than long-term punishment. Not least because it allowed them to view what they did as a solitary act of disobedience rather than "who I am" or "how everybody thinks of me".

Much more effective shock value if a person who thinks of themselves as generally nice suddenly comes face to face with what they just said being quite unacceptable.

This is where pick your battles is really useful. If you don't seem to take "forgetting to put your laundry in the basket" as on the same level as swearing at your mother, if you don't let all these things become bundled up together in a general perception of "this is not a nice person", then it will become easier to get them to accept that some things really are unacceptable. The more they think of themselves as a generally quite decent person, the more they will want to live up to that. If you are always in the dog house, then that is who you become.

I'd say, don't try to buy affection by accepting just anything, but do try to ensure that there are times in the day which are just normal, when you are not reacting against her, where she can think of herself as a basically ok person, and when she can see you as a reasonable person who doesn't overreact. Building up an image of yourself as "generally easy-going but won't take any shit" is the thing I have found most useful in dealing with teenagers.

Thanks Cory x

Totally agree with Cody’s points.
I was amazed at how a subtle change in how I responded to DD anger could make a difference. For example, her shouting “where are my bloody socks??” If I responded in a similarly angry way, “well where do you think, if you put them away you’d know” Inevitably, she would kick off “OMG YOURE ALWAYS SO UNREASONABLE SERIOUSLY CANT YOU JUST SPEAK NORMALLY ETC
But if I kept a very calm voice, no sarcasm, and just said “ Oh I’m not sure, did you try looking in your sock drawer think there may be some there or in the airing cupboard”, she would just stay calm too and often just say “thanks”.
Just altering a few words and my tone seemed to make all the difference. At a calmer point later i would mention how she’d spoken to me earlier and say I didn’t like it. But not pull her up in the heat of the moment.

Good luck. I do think if you stay calm, don’t take it personally, but be very firm in what you will and won’t accept, it will get better.

I didn’t personally withdraw either. I spent some time trying to find some common interests - watched some of her music with her on YouTube. Meant we were communicating about other stuff not just chores or orders. My daughter is definitely better at 16 But it was a tough few years and I can still see the old angry her x

Thanks thats the thing she has no interests. She used to love dogs but not anymore. Doesn’t like music, make up, art, clothes/fashion, sports, no hobbies or interests these days so its really difficult finding a common interest to have a conversation about or something to do together other than going for a cake somewhere.

Hi again, I’ve now tried to reply twice and both long answers have somehow deleted!! Will try a third time!!
Anyway just wanted to say my daughter sounded very similar in year 10 .
Can be totally normal behaviour And there is some great advice on this thread. Or it could be a bit exacerbated if she’s young in her school year by a slight lack of maturity and resilience that can make them a bit more scared and anxious and this comes out as huge anger. Try reading some books on teenage brain. I like Untangled by Lisa Damour and also the “I hate you but can I get a lift into town first” - this is really good.

My DD was quiet in class - can mean maybe she’s nervous of looking foolish. Also is she going out a lot ? If not, she may be feeling worried she’s not but scared to go. Drink and drugs are big and if she’s being sensible she will be scared to take them but not know how to say no. Is she still being bullied? Maybe she’s very wary after what happened before.
She may be embarrassed about her english set - she may need help to know how to improve it?
Key thing is to get some communication going that’s not simply questioning - however nicely - but find a small thing in common. I watched YouTube on the TV with my daughter occasionally. She also got into Hamilton at this age and we talked about that. Very gradually!

My DD went on pill as hormones had big mood affect for her and this really helped too.
I’m sure things will improve - my daughter has been better since turning 16 and we are much closer. I hope you can stay calm, let her know you are there for her when she’s ready to talk. Good luck.

I had the same thing about no common interests with ds- exacerbated by the fact that the whole rest of his family are very passionate about what we do and share a lot of common ground so he is the only one out. Still found in the long run the calm friendliness described by Lilactimes helped. Also a willingness to engage with him on his own terms when he offered rather than anxiously suggesting more interests he should develop. Occasionally watching a football match together or a series on Netflix. Low key.

I think these days the need to have interests can become another feature of the intense competitiveness young people are surrounded by. Do you have Interests? Are they Good Enough Interests? Are you Good Enough at your Interests? It becomes less about the interest itself and more about the CV.

Ds isn't a passionate person. He quite likes watching the football league and sometimes kicking a ball around the park with his mates but he doesn't get terribly upset when his team doesn't win and he's had no ambition about joining a proper team himself. I've had to learn that that's actually fine. As long as he gets a job and does his duty, that is fine.

I came to realise afterwards that what made ds so negative about having Interests was that he felt this was just part of the same competitive scheme in which he was bound to fail and be a disappointment to everybody.

Yes that makes total sense re the interests. Feeling they need to be the best whereas it’s fine to be lowkey. Everyone progresses at their own rate and has their own timeline as it were!