Is my 15 year old gay, is it just a passing phase, how can I help her as she seems like she is struggling?

[Sweetchillijam]

I have posted before about DD and name changed for this.
DD is 15, tall, secretive, distant, doesn’t like being touched (by us for a cuddle or anything ever), has dyslexia, struggles to have and take part in a conversation at home, she is very quiet but has angry outbursts and is quiet sweary it is like treading on egg shells with her, sometimes she sounds like she is jealous of her older brother and what she sees as unfair treatment. We have tried to discuss this with her (when she is angry and when she is quieter) but she is extremely explosive and nothing seems to get resolved. She rarely goes out except to meet up with one friend maybe once a week or once a fortnight sometimes they will meet with some other friends every couple of months (this was the norm before lockdown too). She has some photos in her room of her with her school friends in school uniform from last year and in several she looks quite manly either scowling (and or with a subtle moustache in some photos probably some sort of filter).
She never wears any make up, always scrapes her long hair back in a severe pony tail, wearing jeans and a hoodie (but maybe her scruffiest hoodie she won’t go out in just a tshirt even in soaring temperatures we have checked and she isn’t self harming) sometimes she has taken to going out for a walk in fell boots and sometimes wearing really old black baggy/shapeless tracksuit bottoms. If we ever pay her a compliment either now or referring to past photos about her looking pretty or anything she goes mad.
We have heard her listening to songs occasionally and I have sometimes shazamed them and checked the lyrics and they are usually about a sad lesbian relationship, today we checked her laptop when she was at school and she has been looking at lesbian porn, she has been looking into getting a mortgage and has an amazon account and in her basket are some mens tracksuit bottoms, mens navy trainers, mens dressing gown, a minimising sports bra and items for the home such as crockery and pans etc etc. I think she fantasies about getting away from me because she hates me so much (i just hang on hoping she will change).
We have suspected she has tendencies this way towards her best friend for a few months now. I don’t know whether her best friend is aware or whether this is reciprocated or not. I have tried to talk to her and tell her I love her and ask if anything she wants to talk about (in the car etc) but most of the time she isn’t pleasurable to be around. She seems to hate me but tolerates and is ok towards her dad. He is also tried to talk to her.
She seems better today although she was straight off into her room after a snack. But Thursday and Friday last week when I picked her up from school she looked angry upset and close to tears. We asked what was wrong and she seemed to be annoyed at all the new procedures the school has brought in re:covid as it minimises lunch times etc.
Any advice at all would be appreciated.

I have suggested she speak to someone go for counselling but she is not keen to put it mildly.

What exactly do you think she needs to go to counselling for?

I don't know if counselling will help. Maybe she just needs to feel supported, and given some space? Sounds like she's trying to figure some stuff out and isn't ready to talk yet.

She sounds like a teenager. Dd went through this and was being swayed towards the trans cult. (Because clearly if you don’t feel frilly then you aren’t supposed to be a girl )
She particularly hated that I said I went through the same thing and wore DPM for years and used a boys name. It’s hard for a teen to not get swept up in the isolation and specialness of their own identities if their ancient mother claims to have felt the same.
Anyway, she’s grown out of that now and is a rabid feminist who is toying with the idea of bisexuality. Whatever - doesn’t matter. From only wearing grey and throwing a fit at the possibility of garments alluding to any femininity, she is now selectively embracing a bit of colour and occasionally choosing tops that (the horror) show she has boobs.
Being a teenage girl is the pits, especially when the dawning realization hits that every male under 25 (and a proportion of those older) are quite obviously judging you on your fuckability, whether you want them to or not. Lots of girls make it as hard as possible for boys to judge them in that way, and frankly I don’t blame them.
Once her confidence increases and she gets to grip with her body and her own voice, it will be easier. Lots of strong, powerful, female role models from all walks of life help.

There are girls who don’t struggle as much, obviously. Dd1 was very easy and sailed through - she’s not conformist as such, but is easily able to pick and choose and has a string performance background, so understands that much of life is a performance of sorts, and that you can choose to ‘perform’ or not. She’d appear on stage with tiny costumes and full make up and use her body with no problem, and would happily wear no make-up, refuse to shave her legs and armpits, and roll her eyes in disgust at the pitiful male commentary.

In my younger DD’s case, she already feels different, so feels she cannot ‘conform’ to the ideals of fuckability, so basically hid. It’s a temptingly small step into having your breasts removed, particularly when you’ll get all the kudos usually reserved for those that confirm to societal ideals, and a good testosterone prescription automatically fools you into feeling more confident.

Yeah. Being a teenage girl sucks, until you find your ‘fuck you, I’m enough.’

Just be aware that most counsellors just affirm if you have even the mildest sense that you don’t fit stereotypes.

Thanks all yes she has always been immature for her age. She loved pink and purple and girly dresses even in year 6 when a few petite girls in her class were wearing black, leopard print, cropped tops and trying their hardest to look older and pouting on instagram etc. Getting boobs (having to wear a bra) and starting her periods at 12 didn’t go down well either.
As we had kids late (in our late 30’s) and I have put on weight (to her I am an embarrassment and totally out of touch). The way she carries on towards me in the last 6 months I feel like the wicked step mother or an imposter to the family.
Fingers crossed things will get better.

She's 15 and looking at getting a mortgage?

It sounds like she may well be gay, but if I were you I would just remain open to whatever comes from her without making assumptions or trying to second guess anything. That may well just wind her up and push her away more. I certainly wouldn't look at her laptop as she may well find out and hate you for it, or you may see something that raises difficult questions about whether to say anything, how to not let on you've seen it etc.

It sounds like she needs space and needs to sort things out for herself. The fact that she has a good friend she sees every week or so (whether it's a current or potential relationship or not) is positive, and probably more important than having the whole friendship group of people who really don't care about you thing.

Hard times.

Thanks FifteenToes she just spends so much time in her room. She has a bank account with some birthday and Christmas money in and during lockdown she sent away for a fake branded hoodie for herself (she has no interest in clothes and never wants anything new) and a Taylor Swift CD (Which came from America but it was actually available in the UK without the delay or the expensive delivery charges) we don’t have a CD player and she has access to Amazon music. We think she maybe gave it to her friend as a gift as the CD has vanished from her room.

Have you ever considered that she may not be gay but transgender?

No I haven’t. But I/we will support her whatever. As a child she never liked dolls but loved furry toys. She was very affectionate and cuddly and loved pretty dresses, jewellery and getting her hair done (at the hairdressers for a special occasion).
I don’t know whether she sees herself as not being able to compete or can’t be bothered to compete with the pretty, petite, high maintenance, shallow girls who strive for popularity so she has maybe just rejected this as she doesn’t have the energy or inclination to compete (but when she looks happy and smiles she is absolutely stunningly beautiful). I suppose time will tell, I just don’t want her to struggle and feel she can’t talk to me.

Doesn't like being touched, doesn't like to talk, quiet, angry outbursts, doesn't like to socialise, wearing old/big clothes, angry about changes in procedures, immature for her age...all these things stand out to me as autistic traits. Have a google about autism in girls op and see if any of it fits. It commonly manifests/becomes more obvious around puberty.

I have wondered about autism she is dyslexic but she is bright enough so has developed her own coping strategies to get by at school. Ironically, before they started school I would have sworn she was far brighter than DS. DS is a year older, lazy and is flying high academically.

Just had a look and many signs for a teen seem to fit. However, when she was younger she was an extremely quick talker. Also she is very organised at laying her bag out for the school day, or for holidays etc. (Much more so than her brother).

Although she hates the attention hates drawing attention to herself, having the dyslexia diagnosis as she just wants to blend but its hard when your 99 percentile in height.
At her very large comprehensive school she tries her best to blend in she always does her homework on time and the only criticism from her teachers is that she is very quiet.
If I pushed to pursue an autism diagnosis it may damage our relationship further and I wonder what the benefits to her would be.

I'd say definitely look into Autism but also stop searching her computer! It might be why she's so angry. I know it's super hard and you're trying to help but she'll feel like you're invading her privacy which will put even more distance between you

Thanks will do trying to take a step back.

We have only done that the once with her laptop as we were really concerned about her but DH cleared the search so she wouldn’t know.

Some autistic people are very disorganised due to poor executive function, but some are highly organised because it makes them feel in control and less anxious. My autistic dd is the most organised person in my house

It's worth looking into, even if it turns our not to be the case.

She sounds almost exactly like my autistic teenage gay daughter!

I wish I had words of wisdom. Just that I too hope it gets easier.
It rings too many bells (literally the whole post!) for me not to think she has autism.
Teen years for autistic girls can be incredibly tough.

Has anyone had a DD with a late diagnosis of autism at 15/16 and would you advise it. I have asked DD if she wanted to see a counsellor (on a couple of occasions as she has looked so unhappy and won’t talk to us and didn’t see a soul for months during lockdown and I was so worried about her). Her periods are very erratic and the Nurse Practitioner suggested she maybe go on the pill (but she wouldn’t hear of that either). So to pursue this I would either have to trick her into it (which she would hate me even more for) or drag her along kicking and screaming and she’s very strong and 5ft 10.

My daughter was diagnosed at 10, but I know two women diagnosed as adults.
It happens a lot more now as the perceived wisdom of it being a male thing has been overturned.
Autistic girls often suffer in silence and it gets worse and worse.
My daughter threatened suicide which finally meant she was heard (I had tried in vain to get help for her for years before this).

@Alonelonelyloner I am so sorry to hear that. This is what I worry about with my DD. She never says she is sad, fed up etc or anything even when asked but sometimes or mostly she just looks/seems really sad, anxious, withdrawn, lonely, angry, furtive etc. I look back on photos of happier times when she looked so pretty, smiley and sparkly. I just worry about what would happen if either her friendship ended or she disclosed her feelings to this friend then she would be alone back to square one. She was pulling her hair out on a night at one stage in the pst and I notice she goes back to this every so often too.

@Sweetchillijam my goodness my dd does the same. She has a little bald patch.

Please go and speak to your GP. Get referred to CAMHS if you can.
We were ignored until my dd cried out for help herself but that is too late I feel. It isn't fair.
We just have to push so hard for our girls.

It does very much sound like she is on the spectrum and so similar to my dd that it is unnerving in a way.
You are not alone. I am scared too for my dd. Having to navigate life and relationships and society (where you have to wash for goodness sake! Go to school etc).

Now that my dd knows that she is neurologically special, that her brain works in a special way which is different from most, she is happier (usually). Now that she knows why we couldn't understand before but that now we do and that we want to, it has really helped.

My dd used to have really aggressive outbursts, still does, I have to watch out for them, but now we have better response mechanisms etc.

Sorry so much to say...

There might be several things going on at once.

She might have a hormone imbalance that’s making her periods irregular. She needs to see a doctor about this. Going on the pill to make the symptoms isn’t the answer.

She also might be on the autistic spectrum. My DD with AspergerS is very able academically and very organised with her work and possessions. And was an excellent and early talker.

Girls with Aspergers are often very different from boys. Tony Atwood has an excellent book on this.

And she might also be questioning her own identity and sexuality. This is entirely normal and lots of teens go through this.

It’s harder for girls now as there is no much pressure to perform femininity - fake hair, fake nails, fake lips, thick make up , fake boobs etc etc

And so much pressure to perform sexually for boys. No wonder so many girls want to opt out of all that. Of course some will be lesbians but some are het girls who just don’t want to act out Male fantasies all day.

And there’s so much violence and sexual harassment of girls - it’s easy to think that being a lesbian keeps you safe from that.

So it’s totally normal to be exploring all this.

I understand that this is very hard for you. But I really hope that you are not going on to her about being “ pretty smiley and sparkly “. That’s a horrible set of stereotypes to put on her. She must feel that as a tall broad young women she can never be the dainty fairy daughter you seem to want.

Part of your posts seem to be more concerned about what she looks like than how she feels.

Sorry I really don’t mean to be harsh here because you obviously love her very much but do you think that she may be feeling pressure from you to be more “feminine”?

You keep referring wistfully to past photos where she was pretty. But she is trying desperately to reject all that. Being a teenage girl and being forced down this “be pretty to feel good” path coupled with the realisation, as a PP said, that she is now being judged on her fuckability, leads many girls to feel ashamed of their bodies and want to hide it.

That is also why she’s being much harder on you than on you DH. It’s your world she’s rejecting not his.

Sorry no when I look at photos of her even from two years ago its more that she looks alive and happy. Whereas, now mostly she looks sad, angry and unhappy.

We couldn’t get to see a doctor we tried twice but all the nurse practitioner would suggest was the pill.

She outright refuses to go and see a doctor or a counsellor and says shes fine. A dismissive fine or ok is her response to most questions whether open or closed questions, at whatever time of the day in whatever situation.

@tiredanddangerous

Doesn't like being touched, doesn't like to talk, quiet, angry outbursts, doesn't like to socialise, wearing old/big clothes, angry about changes in procedures, immature for her age...all these things stand out to me as autistic traits. Have a google about autism in girls op and see if any of it fits. It commonly manifests/becomes more obvious around puberty.

As the dad of a gay DD with Asperger's this sounds VERY familiar.

She doesn’t normally mind changes to procedures but she objects to this as it really limits the amount of time and chances she gets to see her friends and she does like to socialise with her friends whenever she gets the opportunity (they aren’t a very sociable bunch and I think most of them are quiet and fairly introverted) she just isn’t keen on socialising chatting or spending much time with us (instead would rather spend hour after hour on her own in her bedroom if she doesn’t have plans with friends which is most of the time). As they only meet up once a week or once a fortnight.

It does get easier in some ways I promise. But they are square pegs in our round holed world. Dd was diagnosed young 2.5 so different to many of your DD's but in her teen years she didn't know how to be a teen basically because emotionally she was younger. Around 17 (once at 6th form) she started to show a bit of interest in her appearance but her obsession is kpop so she buys clothes from s Korea. She's bisexual and told us around 20, not that she's had a relationship with a woman, only one long relationship and he was male (and bisexual).

Do keep an eye on your girls, they are very vulnerable to mental health problems - a&e has my mobile number on on file because she's been their too many times for emergency psych. But life gets easier because she is developing still, it's like she is 5-6 years behind emotionally so is now like a 16 year old, but 2 years ago she was like a young teen so getting better.

Hang in there folks. If anyone needs tips on going to university etc pm me as we've been through that