Is my 15 year old gay, is it just a passing phase, how can I help her as she seems like she is struggling?

[Sweetchillijam]

I have posted before about DD and name changed for this.
DD is 15, tall, secretive, distant, doesn’t like being touched (by us for a cuddle or anything ever), has dyslexia, struggles to have and take part in a conversation at home, she is very quiet but has angry outbursts and is quiet sweary it is like treading on egg shells with her, sometimes she sounds like she is jealous of her older brother and what she sees as unfair treatment. We have tried to discuss this with her (when she is angry and when she is quieter) but she is extremely explosive and nothing seems to get resolved. She rarely goes out except to meet up with one friend maybe once a week or once a fortnight sometimes they will meet with some other friends every couple of months (this was the norm before lockdown too). She has some photos in her room of her with her school friends in school uniform from last year and in several she looks quite manly either scowling (and or with a subtle moustache in some photos probably some sort of filter).
She never wears any make up, always scrapes her long hair back in a severe pony tail, wearing jeans and a hoodie (but maybe her scruffiest hoodie she won’t go out in just a tshirt even in soaring temperatures we have checked and she isn’t self harming) sometimes she has taken to going out for a walk in fell boots and sometimes wearing really old black baggy/shapeless tracksuit bottoms. If we ever pay her a compliment either now or referring to past photos about her looking pretty or anything she goes mad.
We have heard her listening to songs occasionally and I have sometimes shazamed them and checked the lyrics and they are usually about a sad lesbian relationship, today we checked her laptop when she was at school and she has been looking at lesbian porn, she has been looking into getting a mortgage and has an amazon account and in her basket are some mens tracksuit bottoms, mens navy trainers, mens dressing gown, a minimising sports bra and items for the home such as crockery and pans etc etc. I think she fantasies about getting away from me because she hates me so much (i just hang on hoping she will change).
We have suspected she has tendencies this way towards her best friend for a few months now. I don’t know whether her best friend is aware or whether this is reciprocated or not. I have tried to talk to her and tell her I love her and ask if anything she wants to talk about (in the car etc) but most of the time she isn’t pleasurable to be around. She seems to hate me but tolerates and is ok towards her dad. He is also tried to talk to her.
She seems better today although she was straight off into her room after a snack. But Thursday and Friday last week when I picked her up from school she looked angry upset and close to tears. We asked what was wrong and she seemed to be annoyed at all the new procedures the school has brought in re:covid as it minimises lunch times etc.
Any advice at all would be appreciated.

Thanks thats it exactly my DD seems emotionally and behaviourally quite a few years behind her peers.
But then other times in certain areas she can be surprisingly quite mature. Some of her peers from primary school have so much make up, tan, overly styled hair and false everything on, on a morning, I dread to think what time they must get up at.
DD has completely shunned all that preferring to stay in bed as long as possible, use a rucksack (instead of a River Island hand bag), no make up and scrapes her hair back into a practical pony tail.

When I was young combat trousers and being a "ladette" in a football shirt were perfectly acceptable ways of being. I wouldn't do well as a teenager in this Kardashianised porn culture either and would keep myself covered up because men are awful.

I started saving up to leave home aged 11, had turbulent teens, but sport was my saving grace and gave me a group to belong to. I'm tall too so it was netball for me.

But I'm happy, long married with children and a career now. I still don't wear much make up but I do do skincare.

I still wonder if I'm on the spectrum. I struggle with prettying things up for people and easing them into reality. I'm a "The facts are the facts, face up to them." sort.

I post to give you hope that things can turn out ok. And my only real suggestion is to tell her she seems unhappy and you want to help and ask what she would like you to do. (If you haven't already)

That is such a good post @RomeoLikedCapuletGirls

You seem very very troubled about her appearance OP. Even though wearing your hair in a pony tail to school and carrying your books in a rucksack are TOTALLY NORMAL and how the vast majority of girls across Europe go to school.

Have you any idea why you care so much about what your DD looks like, when she seems very average from your accounts ( not in height )? You seem obsessed by her hair, lack of make up and clothing.

Were you brought up to think all that matters about being a woman is how you look? Do you feel upset that she won’t conform to your own ideas of what is feminine ? What do you fear might happen to her if she doesnt look how you want her to?

You mentioned earlier that you are very overweight and that you are embarrassed About it . Do you think it might help you to speak to a counsellor about your own feelings and issues? If you are carrying a lot of emotional baggage about these things it can be hard to be objective about what’s going on with your DD.

It will also model to her that it’s ok to ask for help and work on our own stuff.

I am not embarrassed about my weight but I think DD maybe is, as she would prefer me to dress in very dark colours and blend in, as she doesn’t want to stand out she doesn’t want me to either. I have referred to her appearance on this post as she often looks very scruffy and will go out covered in dog hairs or if her clothes get dirty she won’t change to go into town etc.

I was like that as a teen. I wouldnt see why dog hairs on my clothes meant I couldn't go out, or a stain, as the clothes were still fine and I was still covered up!

I still dont change to go into town. Do people do that?

My daughter is autistic and I've wondered about myself. I imagine you'd need to accept she is someone who isnt fussed about "getting changed for town" or looking pretty. I sometimes think my mum was disappointed I wasnt obsessed by appearance. I actually see it as a positive trait if someone isnt fussed by makeup/superficial stuff.

I've learnt it matters to other people...but still wouldn't worry for a dog walk or soemtimes laugh it off if I notice the stain when I'm out with others.

Whats wrong with a ponytail? Isnt that how most girls wear hair?!

There's nothing inherently wrong with a rucksack. A girl with a river island handbag isnt automatically a better girl. there's nothing wrong with going no make up. There's nothing wrong with a pony tail. Liking pretty dresses, jewellery or getting your hair done, does not mean you are a better or happier girl. Wearing men's tracksuit bottoms, trainers and dressing gown is fine for a girl. DD prefers sports bras as they are more supportive and comfortable

would either have to trick her into it (which she would hate me even more for) or drag her along kicking and screaming

It worries me you think either of these is a normal parental reaction.

today we checked her laptop when she was at school

This is deeply wrong. If i check DD's laptop she knows about it (she may not get warning but she knows) and I wouldn't ever do it for the non reasons you have given. Ps did you look for negative space in the search history, it's really easy to hide stuff. Searching someone's computer to the level of the average parental level is fairly pointless.

YY to being an Aspie girl. No theres absolutely no need to get a label or push her into trying for a diagnosis. Just use the knowledge to inform your parenting.

It's really normal to go out once a week/fortnight. In fact i would say that's pretty good social life.

Lesbian porn can be more story driven than male porn. Apparently. There are many reasons why she could be looking it up. Which is the trouble with searching her laptop behind her back, there's no room for her to trust you to come to you if something is troubling her or for you to raise anything that concerns you.

There seem to be quite a number of girls with autism that reject girlhood in their mid teens (I work in a school and know quite a number of girls with ASD that identify as trans or gay) and I think much of it is linked to trying to regain the control they previously had over their physical bodies before puberty began. Periods can be messy and painful, other people notice and comment on teenage girls' changing bodies- far easier to reject that and bind their chests, seek hormonal control over periods etc.

I'm not saying she has autism but many ways/behaviours you described remind me of my own daughter.

How do you tell the difference on sight between male and female trainers and male and female tracksuit bottoms?

@Hazelnutlatteplease

How do you tell the difference on sight between male and female trainers and male and female tracksuit bottoms?

Quite. The two younguns in my dept at work (Both 25) had the same pair of trainers on last monday.

I also thought ASD might be a possibility.

One thing - if she comes out - I had it easy in that my DD came out when she was in primary school - DON'T ask her or 'reassure her' that it's a 'passing phase'. Accept what she says as the honest truth. People's sexuality changes. I found out recently a Separatist Radical Lesbian Feminist (the ideal of an iconic cropped head Doc Marten wearing butch) I used to know back in the 80s has been happily married to a man for the past 10 years. If I had told her back then her lesbianism was 'a phase' she'd have punched my lights out. And rightly so.

Thanks all. It totally makes sense why she has rejected all efforts with her appearance now and with what some of you have said and knowing DD I can see why she probably wouldn’t want to be seen in the same way even slightly as some of the girls are so desperate to be seen in.

Nothing wrong with a pony tail if it was maybe a little looser or lower but its not the most flattering for her face and she does look so much nicer on the very rare occasions when she has her hair down.

Re the trainers comment maybe because the trainers were described as ‘mens trainers’ in the description they were also a dark navy blue in colour, similarly the tracksuit bottoms and dressing gown and some of the other clothing she had picked out was also labelled as mens.

We have suggested buying her some new clothing of her own choosing for awhile but she kicks off and refuses to look in a shop or online. DH can’t understand why she shows no interest in clothing or her appearance.

I wasn’t proposing to drag her along to the doctors I was just saying my DD wouldn’t be amenable to visit the doctors of her own accord so I would struggle to get her down this route.

We have only looked at her laptop once as we were quite worried about her and were looking out for her. She won’t talk to us at all, looks sad and worried and rarely spends any time with us.

I will do some more reading around Teenage girls and autism and parenting teenage girls with autism. Thanks again.

We have suggested buying her some new clothing of her own choosing for awhile but she kicks off and refuses to look in a shop or online. DH can’t understand why she shows no interest in clothing or her appearance

I don’t know how many posters need to tell you this - your obsession with her clothes, hairstyle and appearance is not normal. It sounds like you AND your Dh need to get some help.

Parents not liking their kids style is NORMAL. One of the points of being a teenager is to find your own identity and style away from your Parents.

As I read your thread I’m already irritated by your focus on your DDs looks and your insistent attempts to change her to become acceptable to you. I can’t imagine what it’s like for her to live with your constant disapproval and interference 24/7.

You sound very controlling - constantly searching her room, her computer, telling her what to wear, even down to The correct level of her ponytail. Honestly you need to stop this - you are driving her out and into the Arms of others. No wonder she is searching for someone / a group who will love her as she is.

@tiredanddangerous

Doesn't like being touched, doesn't like to talk, quiet, angry outbursts, doesn't like to socialise, wearing old/big clothes, angry about changes in procedures, immature for her age...all these things stand out to me as autistic traits. Have a google about autism in girls op and see if any of it fits. It commonly manifests/becomes more obvious around puberty.

This. I agree sounds like she may be on the spectrum.

@ALLIS0N - all her clothes are very old, scruffy and quite a few barely fit.
She hasn’t grown much since year 7 when most of her clothes were purchased but but she has grown between year 7 and year 11!! Hence, the interest in suggesting she may want some new clothes (we have suggested this off and on for awhile). I didn’t realise how unreasonable that was!!!!

You are deliberately misunderstanding me OP. I am referring to the constant theme of your posts about how you dislike her face, hair, clothes and accessories and how you hark back to the past when she was more acceptable to you.

Can you imagine how it feels to live with people who disapprove of everything about you ? I’d imagine that her response to your offer to buy her new clothes comes in that context.

Also most 15 year olds like to go shopping for their own clothes with their friends ( with parents money of course ), rather than have you buy the ones she chooses. But she may be resentful because she sees it as part of your project to fix her.

Have you sought any medical advice yet to see if she has a hormone imbalance ?

She has a bank card with money to spend on clothes. We have been suggesting she choose some clothes with her friends when she is in town for years but she isn’t interested. She can look online and buy some or we can buy her some on line if she can’t see anything locally.
No not been to GP as she has refused to see either a GP or a counsellor.

Hi I am an adult woman with aspergers and I would say that much of what you said sounds like autism, it doesn’t matter that she was a quick talker or smart, it’s possible she has aspergers. It’s also likely that she is gay but don’t ask her until she’s ready, just make it clear that you’re open minded about the idea. Don’t ask her if she has a boyfriend or girlfriend yet, I hated that as a child. The good news for you is that this is probably a stage, I went through the same as a young teen where I shut myself off and mostly spent time on the internet, I felt safe and happy alone. However now I am really close to my mother and other family, so just try not to worry and keep supporting her. She doesn’t hate you, she’s just a teenager I promise.

What the posters are saying op, is that "scraping your hair into a ponytail and carrying a rucksack" is totally normal. It literally describes what I do to go to work every day, as a woman in my 40s.

I was a teenager in the 90s, I guess the fact that a large proportion of my peers were also wearing scruffy holey jeans, big old shirts and DMs suited me fine. Everything does seem very make up and appearance focused these days for teenage girls :(

My mum found it hard to get me to "dress up" too. I hated it and felt really self-conscious. I still do actually.

Hi @Sweetchillijam I have worked with teenagers with autism in mainstream settings. And whilst I am not qualified to diagnose, from what you say it sounds like autism to me too. Teenagers on the spectrum, especially girls are far more likely to identify as LGBT than the general population.
Other posters need to stop jumping to the conclusion that you are obsessed by your DD’s looks. I can tell you that your comments are in line with those of many of the parents I’ve dealt with. They’ve never know a child so sullen, so scruffy, so dirty etc. They ask why their teen with ASD would rather wear the same soft shirt to school on the Wed even though it’s been covered in tomato sauce since Mon rather than put a clean but less soft one on. They wonder why this daughter cares not what her hair looks like or that her clothes are filthy when their other, non ASD daughter is obsessed by how she looks. Your concerns are all very in line with what I’ve heard time and time again.

Most of the young people I’ve dealt with already have their diagnosis but for some it’s ongoing or very recent. Depression is common. During training, I learned to consider how depressed I might be if I felt that nobody in the world was on my wavelength.
Some parents blatantly resorted to bribery to get their child to agree to appointments but of course this only works if you can tap into something you know she’d want.
I’d just like say that boys with ASD rarely slip through to teenage years. It can happen but it’s rare as they often display ‘classic’ behaviours. Girls on the other hand can be difficult to spot and diagnosis even for experts. It may of course not be autism but a lot of your post sounded very familiar. Good luck with it all.

Just to add that I remember reading that another reason it can be trickier or later to diagnose girls is due to how their obsessions manifest. Often they are deemed age and gender appropriate so go unnoticed such as fairy princesses or unicorns at 6yrs or ponies at 8yrs. But it’s the intensity which differentiates the NT child from the ASD child.

Thanks all thats very reassuring the last two posters and thank you for understanding. I am really not obsessed with my DD’s appearance.

She had a shower this morning and got back into bed with a thick dressing gown on with her hair in a towel and stayed up there until 5 minutes before she was going out. Then when she went out into town with friends (a once a fortnight thing). Her hair was all sticking up so she might as well have not washed it, she had a cheap old sweatshirt on from the back of her wardrobe with several grease marks down the front, her most ill fitting jeans, old scruffy trainers on with old fluffy bed socks on!!! I made the mistake of saying about the sweatshirt being marked and would she not be more comfortable in trainer socks and she went mad and ignored my advice.

She came home spent about 5 minutes with us then one of her friends phoned and she went back upstairs. Begrudgingly came down for her tea and then back to her bedroom again.

If that's whats she's most comfortable wearing, what's wrong with it? I'd get a bit annoyed if someone was constantly criticising my appearance.

Try not to worry too much OP.
This is a common phase in many teens as they often want to try to make sense of everything and it can overwhelm them.
Cue lack of interest in appearance and needing lots of time alone in their room (their safe space)

It’s often best to maintain a light and airy atmosphere around them, rather than alerting them to the fact you think something might be ‘wrong’ (for want of a better word)
as that can just heap more onto them when they’re already struggling.

I’m not saying don’t keep an eye from a distance of course and if there’s anything that causes alarm then you must act but many teens need to go through this phase and will usually flourish in (their own sweet) time.